Originally Posted by Taunton

Science helps support the idea that there is no God by providing zero evidence.

This isn't quite true...as I wrote in the other thread (several months back), you're relying on 'statistical' figures here.

Which is fine, it's perfectly legitimate to get a 'feel' for a scientific situation by asking a specific question and trying to gather evidence to the contrary...namely, set up a bunch of experiments, or 'attempts' at showing something is true, and keeping tally of how many failed attempts there are. You can then say, after sufficiently many attempts and some statistical analysis, "I'm 95% certain that such and such is false."

However, since God is, by definition, not testable, he's currently zero for zero. No evidence has been found, but no plausible attempts have been made.

An example is: There is currently (to my knowledge) no direct evidence to support a specific model of the universe...namely, is the curvature elliptic, planar or hyperbolic (or none of the above)? Do we therefore say, science is disproving that the universe exists, since we haven't gathered sufficient evidence?

No...we simply lack the technology at this current time to send a probe zillions of miles in space and measure deviations in space-time along its path. And even if we did, how do we know that it isn't just 'local' curvature? (like a little ripple in a huge pond of water) So we'd have to send a probe even farther, to make more measurements, only to realize that this larger distance may also be 'local' in the grand scheme of things. It's paradoxical...we will probably never know for certain.

The same could be said for God, except that we know in advance that we definitely never will.


(Note: I'm not giving an argument for God here...I'm just refuting the notion that the lack of evidence is in and of itself, evidence)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv1UH_uBorE

I've really enjoyed reading this thread for the last couple of days. I've also enjoyed the fact that (most) posters are careful to maintain decorum, while fiercely disagreeing. I very much agree with the person, a page or two ago, who wrote that discourse about faith is useful. And I'm glad to see that it struck such a lively chord (crazy # of responses!!!), b/c it shows people aren't apathetic towards it and everyone has an opinion on the existence of God.

I want to quickly put in my 2 cents here as the discussion charges ahead on like 5 different fronts. For those going the philosophical route, or the scientific route or w/e other route you may find. At some point I think you'll all have to agree that any idea that has something to say on the topic of a higher power has to refer to itself as "proof". Yes, it's circular - but that's kinda how it has to be.

So whether its the Bible, the Scientific Method or...just b/c that's what you choose to believe - they all fall the to same common denominator. It's why no one can sit down and write you conclusive proof for faith or for the opposing view(s). So instead of rehashing out intense exchanges that have already happened in probably millions of threads over the interwebs, perhaps people that reject faith can ask people of faith questions as to why they believe in God? And vice-versa.

At this point, I feel that that could be more useful than digressions into evolutionary biology, political philosophy and other ontology stuff that makes my head hurt. Eventually, I'm SURE we'll get back to the same topics - but at least it'll be more ordered, easier to follow and you can simply pull out an one point where you are CERTAIN you do not agree. I dunno, just my thoughts.

Either way, great thread!

(ps. It's kinda funny to see some MacInsiders peeps from a couple years ago still goin' strong. I think I only ever came here to discuss the Jerimi Jones-Azim Kasmani prez elections drama; lol goooood times)

Originally Posted by Theophilus

"Who keeps the metric system down? We dooo, we dooo!"

Shhh don't tell them about the tunnel between the Student Centre and BSB!

WHO RIGS EVERY OSCAR NIGHT!?

KGP stands for "Know God Personally" If you would like to know about it; why/how it is possible to know god personally there is going to be a thing at 6:15 pm in HSC 1A1 on Friday . Its an opportunity to hear what they (campus for Christ) has to say ...Its really up to you whether you accept or completely disagree with what is said.

Originally Posted by rayanneJD

KGP stands for "Know God Personally" If you would like to know about it; why/how it is possible to know god personally there is going to be a thing at 6:15 pm in HSC 1A1 on Friday . Its an opportunity to hear what they (campus for Christ) has to say ...Its really up to you whether you accept or completely disagree with what is said.

what if we disagree with only the chalking?

Then perhaps you could bring it up with the MSU? It's been reviewed before though, so I don't know how far you can get with it. >_< However, I've noticed that KGP has been crossed out over campus, which I do think is a bit rude and would equate it equivalently to tearing down or writing over someone's poster.

Mind you, in general, clubs have noticed a general trend of higher attendance rates (or at least raised awareness), which is the case generally with marketing. Heck, as annoying as those Olympics commercials were, I'm sure EVERYONE knows that Olympic song now....

I'd like to meet the first person who ever decided to start spreading the rumour that there are magical invisible "super people" watching over us and show him all the horrific results of that person's work.

I'm sure they'd be a little embarassed to say the least.

It's also disappointing that here at McMaster, an institute of higher learning, there are people who believe that the Earth is less than 4.5 billion years old. So sad.

Originally Posted by Alpha2Omega

Then perhaps you could bring it up with the MSU? It's been reviewed before though, so I don't know how far you can get with it. >_< However, I've noticed that KGP has been crossed out over campus, which I do think is a bit rude and would equate it equivalently to tearing down or writing over someone's poster.

Mind you, in general, clubs have noticed a general trend of higher attendance rates (or at least raised awareness), which is the case generally with marketing. Heck, as annoying as those Olympics commercials were, I'm sure EVERYONE knows that Olympic song now....

Well, I don't know that olympic song :p...heck, I haven't even heard it

but really, people don't always tear down posters do they? When they tear down your poster...you must be doing something wrong.


@Taunton: To each, his own. Don't argue because you know those who believe won't budge and those who don't won't budge either.

Originally Posted by Afzal

@Taunton: To each, his own. Don't argue because you know those who believe won't budge and those who don't won't budge either.

The moment the religious ones understand what you just said, I'll shut my mouth forever. I'd be happy to never speak of this again if every religious person kept their superstitions to themselves, but no, they insist on trying to convert me and my family over and over and over again (this includes advertising by the way).

So, as long as they continue to try and convert me and take my money, I'll be as vocal about it as wish to be, and I'll never be nice about it.

Also, I NEVER start the discussion on religion. It's always the religious ones.

Originally Posted by Taunton

The moment the religious crazies understand what you just said, I'll shut my mouth forever. I'd be happy to never speak of this again if every religious person kept their superstitions to themselves, but no, they insist on trying to convert me and my family over and over and over again (this includes advertising by the way).

So, as long as they continue to try and convert me and take my money, I'll be as vocal about it as wish to be, and I'll never be nice about it.

Also, I NEVER start the discussion on religion. It's always the religious crazies.

hmm...point to be noted.

Btw, I am religious, just not crazy to promote it. I believe more in Live and let live thing.

*note to self*: don't argue with Ben about religion because he just doesn't like people trying to convert him, he has no problem with people believing in their own religion

Originally Posted by Afzal

Here's something to ponder over: Why does science (or scientists rather) think that living beings might exist other than on our planet, even when there has been no evidence whatsoever that they do?

the difference is that nobody says "there ARE aliens on other planets. They DEFINITELY exist". Instead, the numbers show that it is probable that life exists elsewhere, and people say "it is likely".

Religious people say "God DOES exist" and they say it with certainty, which is wrong, because they don't know that.

Note: I've never stated "god DOESN'T exist". I've always been open to the possibility, however, there's no reason to believe in a god right now, so I don't.

It's really no different than leprechauns, or unicorns or Bigfoot. There's no reason to believe they exist, however I'd accept that they do if it could be proven. No proof? No god. End of story.

PS: Saying that you can't prove god exists is a cop-out. If it matters that much to people, and if people are SO convinced, they should be able to provide proof.

Originally Posted by Taunton

I'd like to meet the first person who ever decided to start spreading the rumour that there are magical invisible "super people" watching over us and show him all the horrific results of that person's work.

The rumour is the one that someone started spreading saying that there IS no god. And although, I'm not exactly sure who it is you'd like to talk to, I'd like to hear about all the horrific things you're talking about ... Mr. SRA science... If you're actually up for meeting up

Originally Posted by Afzal

@Taunton: To each, his own. Don't argue because you know those who believe won't budge and those who don't won't budge either.

not really true... people budge all the time...