[temara.brown]

Corporate Responsibility and the Democratic Process

BY IAN FINLAY, MSU VICE PRESIDENT FINANCE

It is an honour and a challenge to serve the students of McMaster. Like my colleagues, I try to do my very best every day. I am proud of what myself and my colleagues have accomplished. But I also know that some things could have been done better.

The most challenging aspect of our job, is to ensure that we are open to all students; that we ensure you know what we are doing and why; that you have a voice and that we reflect that voice. A recent letter from a former student, Alex McColl is evidence that we have not done our job; that I have not done my job as well as it could be done.

Mr. McColl raises two matters. The first is that he questions the basis and process of salary increases for various positions that were approved in 2008. The second matter is how he lost an election for VP Finance, claiming it was because he did not have enough friends on the Student Representative Assembly.

Over 2007 and 2008, significant changes were made to the accountability and expectations of some of the elected positions in the MSU. These included an increase in working hours, and increased responsibilities for committee chairpersons and others. These changes are detailed in minutes of various SRA meetings. At the same time, the SRA also acknowledged an inequitable treatment of some staff categories, and after long and careful consideration by the Finance Committee, and the Student Representative Assembly, the realignment of the compensation categories to achieve equity was implemented, and some staff did receive increases in pay.

The MSU is a very large corporation, with an annual operating budget of roughly $7 million, comprised of hundreds of employees, both full and part time. The MSU is governed by students like you. These students take their responsibilities very seriously. In doing so, we must be transparent in what we do and how we do it. To this end, our meetings are open. Our minutes are published. We invite and engage many students individually, in committees and at the SRA. Yet, if people like Mr. McColl cannot understand basic issues like staffing and compensation, then we have not done our job as well as we feel we should.

For example, Mr. McColl attempted, in his letter, to calculate the increases based on cost of living. He failed to consider the more significant impact of the increase in working hours, which in turn were driven by the increased responsibilities.

The second point raised by Mr. McColl is his unhappiness in failing to be elected as VP Finance. I would like to say that Mr. McColl, and many other students, put their names forward for election to a great many positions. All of these candidates should be applauded and respected. Many were prepared to give up an entire year of studies to hold positions in the MSU. They put themselves before their peers for evaluation. They submitted to a democratic process wherein they were all called upon to gather support from either the student body generally, their faculty, or the elected students on the SRA. Mr. McColl appears unhappy that he did not have the support on the SRA to succeed in his quest. He is correct. The open and democratic process does lead to some students being unsuccessful in obtaining the position they seek. Some excellent candidates are among those that are not successful. It is the way democracy works. For all its flaws, it is the very best system to give the public a voice, and to hold elected positions accountable. As much as it may have been disappointing to Mr. McColl, it was equally disappointing to many others seeking other positions. These others have found constructive ways to contribute to the life of students at McMaster, or have moved on to other endeavours. I hope that Mr. McColl can do the same.

On my own behalf and that of all my colleagues involved in the MSU and SRA governance, I encourage all of you to get involved. Learn what we are doing. Feel free to question, but also to come with new solutions, not just empty criticisms.

Ian Finlay
VP Finance
[email protected] r.ca

[DavidR]

While I agree that people need to move on who don't win positions - I don't agree that the student body cannot elect the Vice Presidents. I don't pretend to know why / or exactly how it works - but as far as I'm concerned that's far from an "open" democratic process that Ian speaks of.

I'd honestly have no problem with salary increases if the MSU was performing well, but when you and your executive are driving it into the ground - no one should be getting raises. Just because you have more responsibilities on paper doesn't mean you're doing them which in turn doesn't justify pay increases.

[deadpool]

The whole problem with this process has just been evidenced by the previous post.

Mr. Finlay and his administration have nothing to do with the $425, 000 loss at Quarters. That was a previous administration! Mr. Finlay's progress as VP Finance has put the MSU in a much more advantageous position than it was last year, and you will know about this at MSU GA where he plans to release all financial year-to-date records from the first semester.

Secondly, David, the biggest reason why there are internal VP Elections is due to the nature of the job. It is not a political position, and as such, the Vice-President candidates need to have accountable knowledge. For example, the Vice-President Administration position certainly needs HR experience, and a working knowledge of the MSU and its services. The general public cannot be expected to understand the issues that the SRA is.

When VP elections come about, the candidates are put through a quite intense question period where the SRA members scrutinize the knowledge, experience or character presented by the candidate. They make supremely informed decisions about this. It is impossible for the general public to do so. Imagine you were a VP Candidate and lost a general election because your opponent was more likeable as a person, and put more time campaiging, when you are easily the more qualified person. These problems cannot happen, and as such the SRA is required to do it. They are forced to be there to listen to all parts of a candidate's platform, something that cannot happen in a general.

To be completely honest, the Presidential election can go to anyone who appears to be good because their job is to give the students what they want. The VPs are those who run the business, and should be removed from the political process.

With that said, and as I'm sure Joey Coleman will add, it does not mean that the decisions made by the SRA are always correct. However, that comes down to the SRA the people elect. If those SRA members choose to do favours for friends, or do not pay attention and vote stupidly because they are not paying attention, they are not doing THEIR jobs.

As far as accountability goes, I feel as if an accountable team of VPs needs to have an accountable SRA. Concerns should be voiced to the SRA, who in turn should make proper decisions on how to deal with them. I disagree with any process that would grant general MSU members the ability to remove VPs because of the low-level of knowledge and interaction they should theoretically have.

If a VP does not appear to be doing their work, it is up to the SRA to decide that because they are elected to do so. If they do not uphold proper standards then the SRA members need to be replaced, and an accountable SRA should make the decision to fire a VP and rehire.

In the end, the decisions of the MSU MUST go through the SRA, the EB which is elected from the SRA, and the standing committees of the SRA. It is the SRA who has the final say, as they are the entire consolidated legislated power of the MSU.

[fullsmash26]

Originally Posted by deadpool

The whole problem with this process has just been evidenced by the previous post.

Mr. Finlay and his administration have nothing to do with the $425, 000 loss at Quarters. That was a previous administration! Mr. Finlay's progress as VP Finance has put the MSU in a much more advantageous position than it was last year, and you will know about this at MSU GA where he plans to release all financial year-to-date records from the first semester.

Finlay holds responsibility for the lost. Finlay was a member of the SRA last year and a member of the fcommittee of the SRA which is responsible for Quarters. CUT THE BS. Finlay is responsible, contrary to all the excuses coming from the SRA and MSU.

Secondly, David, the biggest reason why there are internal VP Elections is due to the nature of the job. It is not a political position, and as such, the Vice-President candidates need to have accountable knowledge. For example, the Vice-President Administration position certainly needs HR experience, and a working knowledge of the MSU and its services. The general public cannot be expected to understand the issues that the SRA is.

Read... we in the MSU clique believe students are not intelligent enough to do a better job than us.

When VP elections come about, the candidates are put through a quite intense question period where the SRA members scrutinize the knowledge, experience or character presented by the candidate. They make supremely informed decisions about this. It is impossible for the general public to do so. Imagine you were a VP Candidate and lost a general election because your opponent was more likeable as a person, and put more time campaiging, when you are easily the more qualified person. These problems cannot happen, and as such the SRA is required to do it. They are forced to be there to listen to all parts of a candidate's platform, something that cannot happen in a general.

I've witness VP appointments. It's worse than the popularity contest you describe. The positions are decided in the backrooms of the MSU in advance of the SRA meeting. Judging by the last few executives; your description is not hypothetical, it is exactly what's happening within the MSU clique.

Again, the typical insider attitude that students are stupid.

To be completely honest, the Presidential election can go to anyone who appears to be good because their job is to give the students what they want.

No dispute there. However, students can't be blamed for this year. We don't know who they actually elected last year because ballots appeared and disappeared before the MSU settled on one of their own. That said, the previous two presidents that students elected didn't do much of anything.

[DannyV]

Originally Posted by deadpool

The whole problem with this process has just been evidenced by the previous post.

Mr. Finlay and his administration have nothing to do with the $425, 000 loss at Quarters. That was a previous administration! Mr. Finlay's progress as VP Finance has put the MSU in a much more advantageous position than it was last year, and you will know about this at MSU GA where he plans to release all financial year-to-date records from the first semester.

Why not release them already? Why wait until the GA? Why not put them on you know, the MSU website which the MSU is supposed to be using to communicate with us students.

The general public cannot be expected to understand the issues that the SRA is.

So now you're saying only certain students have the intellectual capacity to guide us lowly students into the light? Out of some 20,000 undergrads, a mere handful of people can possibly understand the issues? Get over yourselves.

To be completely honest, the Presidential election can go to anyone who appears to be good because their job is to give the students what they want. The VPs are those who run the business, and should be removed from the political process.

As has happened in at least the past 5 years.

that comes down to the SRA the people elect. If those SRA members choose to do favours for friends, or do not pay attention and vote stupidly because they are not paying attention, they are not doing THEIR jobs.

But you just said that students can't make the right decisions. SRA and MSU members like to remind us that they are students themselves so...

As far as accountability goes, I feel as if an accountable team of VPs needs to have an accountable SRA. Concerns should be voiced to the SRA, who in turn should make proper decisions on how to deal with them. I disagree with any process that would grant general MSU members the ability to remove VPs because of the low-level of knowledge and interaction they should theoretically have.

"Go to the movies kids, mommy and daddy need to have a talk." ?

In the end, the decisions of the MSU MUST go through the SRA, the EB which is elected from the SRA, and the standing committees of the SRA. It is the SRA who has the final say, as they are the entire consolidated legislated power of the MSU.

So the final message is, don't blame the MSU for screwing up, blam the SRA. Talk about accountability.

[stevennevets]

he never said general students are too stupid to make the right choice. he said general students don't have enough knowledge of the issues a VP will be up against to make an informed decision based on that and not political reasons.

no corporation has constantly updated financial records on display for the public whenever we decide to see them. in fact, those types of records are usually released at a GA, or on a quarterly basis. Can you really not wait three days to see the information?

[deadpool]

Joey, the average student cares more about his or her academics than the happenings of the Student Union. I cannot count the number of people who have told me they voted for Ryan Moran because he was hot, and then the same people admit that they voted for Joel Leavitt for the same reason.

This shows that students are really involved with the issues! Look at MacInsiders as another example. We have students who want superficial things: sandwiches at Union Market, more couches, etc. The candidates who are promising these things are winning. If it wasn't for Leavitt being reinstated right now we would have a President who ran on a platform of funnel cakes and a Soulja Boy song.

No, students are not stupid, they are ignorant. They choose to allocate more time to studying, or in some cases, partying, than understand the issues. If they don't do that, they spend time pandering on about how bad of a job the MSU is doing.

I am aware that you have ran for a VP Position Joey, but Danny, what have you contributed to the system you despise? While you may being up many valid points, the only people who read them are the people who care enough to pay attention. This makes you no better than the SRA member who votes up to pad their resume.

Joey, I understand that you love to be adversarial towards the MSU, but your viewpoints and alleged actions prove that you are putting the interests of people second to your desire to have a big scoop. Case in point: how at the Board of Publication meeting last week you were found in possession of a document that was not given to you, and how you were found recording the meeting without consent.

Frankly, I think you would be a very good resource because you do make the effort to go to other places and see how it has run. I read the article you posted about the revilatization of Louie's. But you ruin that by taking every opportunity to disparage a candidate.

As far as the wages issue goes, I'm in favour of a remuneration for the BOD that is competitive with wages those people would earn after graduating. A competitive wage would increase the likelihood that deserving people would run for the positions instead of beginning their career in a job that pays a lot more.

Look at engineers. They make no delay in asserting their intellectual advantages over other people, but there has not been an engineering president in a long time. None of them put time into the MSU, and if they do run, it usually is as a joke. Frankly, I don't blame them: the job market for engineers is far more lucrative than a one-year contract at the Student Union.

===

As far as accountability goes, at the GA, or if you choose to go to Ian Finlay's office right now, go look at the Year-to-Dates of the non-revenue generating services within the MSU. Each and every one of us has Year-to-Dates that are in line with the previous year's. This means that we would be staying on the budget written up for us.

When you blame the MSU, you are disparaging each and every one of us underpaid part-time-managers. Yes. Blame the SRA, but not the MSU. We do not deserve this because we do not make policy decisions. We do not elect in shitty candidates to higher posts.

===

Joey, you know a lot, but at the same time half the things you write don't make any sense in the reality we live in. Moreover, you have not even explained how you would do the entire process. I respect the reporting you do on issues, and follow your blog to stay up to date on stuff. However, I cannot reconscile with your viewpoints because you have never stated how you would explicitly do things differently. I cannot take the things you say with a lot of weight because you have not persevered to change things and choose instead to argue that they are wrong, while using semantics to your benefit.

When you do respond, I humbly request that you do not go on the defensive, and isntead show the people following this an iota of what you would do in the place of the president, and the SRA while following HR laws.

As for your "back room" dealings, how do you account for Remek Debski getting elected? He was the Sil Executive Editor whose paper publicly demonized Ryan Moran, John Popham, and the SRA for the firing of Chris Jaic. Vishal Tiwari was a relative unknown to the SRA, and allthough you might cry out that he knew Azim Kasmani before, it was because he was his community advisor the previous year in Keyes.

[Nino]

Although I may not know too much regarding the MSU and politics at McMaster (I've been trying to keep up with everything), all I'm seeing is negative comments rather than suggestions and ideas to how issues can be solved. There's no need for the negativity...If anything, we should provide support and feedback so that different issues within our university can be fixed. If everyone argues, then no one would get anywhere. Honestly, I am thinking of perhaps running as a candidate for the MSU presidency in the future once I have gained enough experience within the MSU but I don't know anymore with all the negative comments thrown around. Just my two cents...

[fullsmash26]

Originally Posted by deadpool

Joey, I understand that you love to be adversarial towards the MSU, but your viewpoints and alleged actions prove that you are putting the interests of people second to your desire to have a big scoop. Case in point: how at the Board of Publication meeting last week you were found in possession of a document that was not given to you, and how you were found recording the meeting without consent.

Said document was given to me. The meeting was a public meeting.

The recording of it was proper by the rules of professional conduct I must adhere to. When asked not to record, I stop. I understand the aversion to transparency that exists in the MSU.

I'm not going to publicly state what the MSU was doing that resulted in me being asked to represent The Silhouette in the meeting because I was there as a professional journalist, not as a reporter.

Before you accuse me of thief, you may want to get your facts correct.

Thank You,

Joey Coleman

[owenadam]

Originally Posted by deadpool

No, students are not stupid, they are ignorant. They choose to allocate more time to studying, or in some cases, partying, than understand the issues. If they don't do that, they spend time pandering on about how bad of a job the MSU is doing.

I am aware that you have ran for a VP Position Joey, but Danny, what have you contributed to the system you despise? While you may being up many valid points, the only people who read them are the people who care enough to pay attention. This makes you no better than the SRA member who votes up to pad their resume.

Rohan. Calling students ignorant is not a good way of ingratiating yourself to the student body as a whole. Especially s a Spirit Leader. Furthermore, even if the average student is ignorant of the MSU, lets look at the situation that led to this situation.

The majority of lasting, year long decisions are made in the summer, when students are not present to hear about them.

The MSU website is so bad that it is impossible for the average student to follow SRA minutes, or even gain a cursory understanding of proceedings.

MSU and SRA spokespersons rarely consult MSU PR expert Michael Wooder. What results are conflicting and sometimes damaging statements made (like calling students ignorant, for example)

The SRA, in my opinion, makes use of 'closed session' protocols so often and with such enthusiasm that the average student is left in the dark

Outdoor Office Hours were cancelled this year

When the Sil publishes a critical story, SRA members with no insight or understanding of specifics throw the Libel card around like a goddamned ticker tape parade

DannyV's lack of involvement does not serve as reason enough for his 'valid points' to not be addressed.

The MSU/SRA needs to understand that low involvement is not an opportunity; it is the problem.

[fullsmash26]

Originally Posted by deadpool

As for your "back room" dealings, how do you account for Remek Debski getting elected? He was the Sil Executive Editor whose paper publicly demonized Ryan Moran, John Popham, and the SRA for the firing of Chris Jaic. Vishal Tiwari was a relative unknown to the SRA, and allthough you might cry out that he knew Azim Kasmani before, it was because he was his community advisor the previous year in Keyes.

Incorrect. Remek came in as Executive Editor and stopped the critical editorials. I was there. The Executive Editor you're thinking of was an interim editor Shaheen Georgee.

Rohan, you're normally much better than this. The writing style of this post and the post last night on finances are both of a similar style. A style very different than your normal style.

It appears you may be posting on behalf of another individual. If this is the case, I'd advise caution in taking their information as the gossip truth. If I'm incorrect, and this is your writing, then the feeling of disappointment is mutual.

Further, if you plan on getting an appointment to VP. I would advise you to not show such contempt of the student body.

There is only one true establishment candidate in the race. This means if any of the other eight candidates win, the power dynamic will potentially shift to the very students you're showing open contempt of.

So what if a student decides to party instead of getting involved with the MSU, this doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of ensuring their money is well spent and you're representing their interests properly.

[DannyV]

What are you trying to say, Rohan? I have chosen not to get involved and thus my opinions and criticism don't matter?

If that's the case, then you're again putting forth the notion that we should all blindly follow the handful and people who if history is any proof (and as I said) do not deserve the power they are given.

I don't need to defend myself to you or anyone else for that matter but since you "kindly" asked, in the past 5 years I have been at McMaster I've listened to the debates and I've voted in elections for the candidates which appeared to me (at the time) to be most promising. I've made an effort to inform myself and based on the information voted in the referenda put forth.

I have neither the time to spend on, nor the interest in student politics which is required of a full time member of the MSU. In my 5 years here I've heard future presidents promise many things out of which only the trivial things were ever achieved, if any.

[deadpool]

Joey, I was told the things about the Board of Pub by someone I hold in high esteem to be truthful. If it was false, then I do apologise.

Adam, I didn't discount Danny's views. I find the serious views, that don't mock me, very interesting and useful. I meant that the students who read the views on this website are those who generally care enough to involve themselves. What about the 90% of students who do not come to vote in referendums? They do not care. It's not me trying to discount students, but it's me being real. I have a large amount of friends who chastise me daily for giving a shit instead of being out with them getting smashed at BP on a Tuesday night.

Furthermore, I suppose I was writing a bit colloquiolly, but the low involvement is the problem. It means that people come who get voted onto the SRA come to meetings and sleep through the important parts. It means that people who are elected onto standing committees never show up. I'm not rising in support of the SRA. As my friend Matt Wright, brand new SRA Eng, said to the assembly, their nonsensical pandering and cylical argument makes anyone who comes to a meeting vow to never return. The numbers do not lie. Even the HSR referendum last year, a HUGE issue, did not generate a large amount of student interest.

Danny, my problem with you at this point in time is not that you aren't involved, but more that you readily offer negative comments to stuff I am constructively trying to say. I am trying. Adam, you can speak to the fact that I was sitting in Ian Finlay's office going over finances with him, when you came by this morning.

Yeah, sometimes my comments come out of line due to my own personal lack of knowledge about some issues, and I do apologise for the presumptions I make. But I make no apologies for the viewpoints I hold that you guys are attempting to call me on. I do not believe in general elections for VPs. I do not believe in having a BoD wage that is not competitive with graduate entrance wages.

I do believe in the ignorance of the general student population when it comes to matters regarding their student politics. Adam should know. The Sil prints 10,000 copies every week, and a large amount remains on the shelves. Granted, some Silhouette's are passed around, but it's pretty obvious that a large number of students don't care to pick up an issue.


===
Adam, I don't care to cover up what I believe is the truth for the sake of political appearance. I'm not running for President, nor am I running for SRA. I will call it like I see it, and what I see are students who don't give a shit about what goes on until someone singles them out to ask them their opinion.

I'm the MSU's Spirit Leader. I am tasked with making students wear Maroon suits and go out to football games. I am tasked with making sure that the Maroons are there to support Welcome Week. I am tasked with guiding first year students in event planning. I am tasked with helping liase with groups on campus and being a resource to clubs and other MSU services. I feel that I have fulfilled these requirements. I try my best to make sure that students who want to get involved find proper avenues. I have a network of first year students who come to me for mentorship with items academic and extracurricular. Adam, I am damn well doing my job fighting student apathy and ignorance even though it is not in my job description. Don't lecture me on ingratiating myself into the community.

[lorend]

Originally Posted by owenadam

The MSU website is so bad that it is impossible for the average student to follow SRA minutes, or even gain a cursory understanding of proceedings.

I am quite sure I have already asked this question on another thread: but what about the Sil's website? It's not often updated (ie a few times weekly, max), which is problematic for something that is supposed to be providing current news.

[DannyV]

Originally Posted by lorend

I am quite sure I have already asked this question on another thread: but what about the Sil's website? It's not often updated (ie a few times weekly, max), which is problematic for something that is supposed to be providing current news.

I guess we should be thankful the have a website again?