Originally Posted by mike_302

If this is true, then does it mean they want more TA's to spread the students over? And by that logic, would it not mean that the school would be paying MORE for each TA, on top of paying for MORE TA's ?

AGAIN, please understand I am not being offensive here. In this message, I'm neutral. I want to understand if I have that correct.

Hey Mike, it's no problem.

As has been mentioned on the other forums, many tutorial and lab class sizes are already at the size that CUPE is demanding for. In the Science faculty however, there are some sections that have up to 40 students a lab. Yes, this would call for two TA's instead of just one. This would not only alleviate the work load for TA's in having to mark all those labs and supervising, it would also contribute to a greater learning experience to students in my opinion.

Other demands that have been called for include increasing the hours of TAs from 260 to 280 hours, as is in all other universities in ontario. McMaster is the only one that does not have this benefit. This is because many TAs have found that they do in fact work a couple hours more per week, which adds up in the end.

Overall, I found the demands perfectly reasonable. They are not asking for a wage increase, but rather more of qualitative demands.

Originally Posted by Parnian

Hey Mike, it's no problem.

As has been mentioned on the other forums, many tutorial and lab class sizes are already at the size that CUPE is demanding for. In the Science faculty however, there are some sections that have up to 40 students a lab. Yes, this would call for two TA's instead of just one. This would not only alleviate the work load for TA's in having to mark all those labs and supervising, it would also contribute to a greater learning experience to students in my opinion.

Other demands that have been called for include increasing the hours of TAs from 260 to 280 hours, as is in all other universities in ontario. McMaster is the only one that does not have this benefit. This is because many TAs have found that they do in fact work a couple hours more per week, which adds up in the end.

Overall, I found the demands perfectly reasonable. They are not asking for a wage increase, but rather more of qualitative demands.

(Again, I could be wrong)
But I'm pretty sure they did ask for a wage increase, from $20/hour to $30/hour for undergrad TAs.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

They were dealing with CAW at the time as well. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but I think the CAW contracts were up before the CUPE contracts, so that's what was dealt with first.
(I could be wrong)

And they were even working at a snail's pace with CAW. Does anyone remember when they said the food-staff at McMaster would possibly go on strike? I'm noticing a pattern here. Workers are getting upset and frustrated, and they are wanting more stability in an economic recession where they are very likely to lose their jobs!

Originally Posted by Kathy2

(Again, I could be wrong)
But I'm pretty sure they did ask for a wage increase, from $20/hour to $30/hour for undergrad TAs.

The wage increase was not one of their major concerns. They were willing to put that on the back burner if the university gave at least some consideration to the major demands. The university has not addressed ONE.

Originally Posted by Parnian

Yeah, damn CUPE for trying to cap class sizes and reduce the number of students per TA. Damn them!

It's obvious you're just pissed that there's a strike. Deal with it. In the end, the TAs will benefit and I'm happy for that.

Its a shame most TAs don't feel the strike is benefiting them.

In terms of capping class sizes, I actually meant to reply to your post in a different thread about why McMaster would be unwilling to cap class sizes, even if most tutorials/ labs already meet what the union is asking for.

For classes like first year calculus, where tutorials are run by professors as essentially an extra lecture, a cap would make that not possible. Obviously increasing the number of lectures a week would be a way around this, but I have a feeling there might be a limit to the actual number of lecture hours a class can have in a week.

As well, there are classes like Psych 2F03 or 2RA3 where the TAs run the tutorials, and they are still for the whole class. However, there are definitely enough TAs for the course that it could be split into tutorial groups of a traditional size. That would be more work for the TAs though, as they would have to run a tutorial every week instead of once every couple (the TAs alternate). This lets them allocate more of their paid hours to marking assignments, so they don't work unpayed hours. There usually aren't enough people showing up to tutorial to make it practical to split the group either.

I'm also relatively sure that the way Kin 1Y03/1YY3 is set up would conflict with a lab cap, but is the most effective way to run it. Someone who is actually in that course would have to provide details.

I guess my point was that a blanket cap might not be the best solution for all courses.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I would much prefer what the university has been doing during this situation than CUPE. McMaster isn't trying to scare students like CUPE, and the information Mac put out is nowhere near as biased as CUPE.

I just don't see what else Mac could have done. I think they gave us enough information when necessary. If someone wanted more information on the strike, I'm sure there's people they could have talked to. Mac isn't trying to hide anything from us. I think they've done a pretty good job staying as neutral (as possible right now) and letting us know ths things we need to know.

Facepalm.

CUPE provides more information, and yet you say they're scaring students? Knowledge is power.

Originally Posted by Parnian

And they were even working at a snail's pace with CAW. Does anyone remember when they said the food-staff at McMaster would possibly go on strike? I'm noticing a pattern here. Workers are getting upset and frustrated, and they are wanting more stability in an economic recession where they are very likely to lose their jobs!

Its not a pattern.

You're insinutating that workers are just getting fed up and threatening to strike. This isn't exactly the case.

Contracts for different groups of workers at McMaster ran out this year, that is what is leading to potential strikes. Every contract negotiated for unionized workers has a time limit on it, once that contract is up a new one has to be drawn up. Usually new contracts are negotiated and signed and that is the end of that. Occasionally the new contract is not acceptable to the union/the workers and certain issues need to be negotiated further. Once it gets to a point where neither side is budging on an issue, or a few issues there may be a threat of a strike by the union if the other side doesn't compromise further. Then mediators and the like are brought in to try and negotiate a deal. If no deal is met within a certain amount of time workers strike in order to force the other side to give them what they want. Negotiations continue until a deal can be reached.

Yes workers are unhappy in these cases but that is not how things start. Groups of workers don't just up and decide to strike because of something randomly. It happens when a contract runs out and a certain issue or issues can't be resolved in a timely manner.

Originally Posted by Parnian

Facepalm.

CUPE provides more information, and yet you say they're scaring students? Knowledge is power.

CUPE provides lots of very biased information and their tactics are designed to scare students.

I guess you've never heard of scare tactics.

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

For classes like first year calculus, where tutorials are run by professors as essentially an extra lecture, a cap would make that not possible. Obviously increasing the number of lectures a week would be a way around this, but I have a feeling there might be a limit to the actual number of lecture hours a class can have in a week.

As well, there are classes like Psych 2F03 or 2RA3 where the TAs run the tutorials, and they are still for the whole class. However, there are definitely enough TAs for the course that it could be split into tutorial groups of a traditional size. That would be more work for the TAs though, as they would have to run a tutorial every week instead of once every couple (the TAs alternate). This lets them allocate more of their paid hours to marking assignments, so they don't work unpayed hours. There usually aren't enough people showing up to tutorial to make it practical to split the group either.

I'm also relatively sure that the way Kin 1Y03/1YY3 is set up would conflict with a lab cap, but is the most effective way to run it. Someone who is actually in that course would have to provide details.

I guess my point was that a blanket cap might not be the best solution for all courses.

OK regarding your first scenario, that is not exactly a tutorial, but an information session (Q and A) provided by a professor. As a TA is not running it, there would be no need to have a cap on that.

Regarding the other classes where you are saying the TAs would have "more time to mark assignments", that is clearly not at play here. This is because there are several courses where TA's both run tutorials and mark assignments/tests/labs as well.

In my honest opinion, it would be best to have all tutorials in a small classroom setting. This greatly enhances the quality of students' educations.

Originally Posted by sew12

CUPE provides lots of very biased information and their tactics are designed to scare students.

I guess you've never heard of scare tactics.

Scare tactics? Like what? Because so far they have NEVER scared me because I have kept myself educated for up to a year on what they've been doing.

I knew this was coming a LONG time ago.

Originally Posted by Parnian

Scare tactics? Like what? Because so far they have NEVER scared me because I have kept myself educated for up to a year on what they've been doing.

I knew this was coming a LONG time ago.

I'm not scared either but I'm not sure what yelling at students and hand them biased literature is really going to do.

The union's fight is with the University, what exactly do they want the students to do about it?

One particular tactic that someone took issue with here a few days ago was a CUPE representative blatantly lying to students. They were handing out flyers in front of MUSC and telling people the TAs could be on strike Friday. This freaked out students in a large class who had a huge mid-term on Friday and thought it might not be happening. The blatant lies of the CUPE representative scared students and panicked them about a test they were supposed to have and needed to be studying for.

Originally Posted by Parnian

Scare tactics? Like what? Because so far they have NEVER scared me because I have kept myself educated for up to a year on what they've been doing.

I knew this was coming a LONG time ago.

They've threatened legal action against anyone who crosses the picket lines.

They have handed out manuals to picketers telling them to take pictures of any one crossing the picket lines, and to find out their names, addresses and licence plate numbers. This information is supposed to be posted on a website.

They have suggested that anyone crossing the pickets will have their right to vote on union matters removed.


http://www.macinsiders.com/showthread.php?t=2466 1

Originally Posted by Parnian

OK regarding your first scenario, that is not exactly a tutorial, but an information session (Q and A) provided by a professor. As a TA is not running it, there would be no need to have a cap on that.

Regarding the other classes where you are saying the TAs would have "more time to mark assignments", that is clearly not at play here. This is because there are several courses where TA's both run tutorials and mark assignments/tests/labs as well.

In my honest opinion, it would be best to have all tutorials in a small classroom setting. This greatly enhances the quality of students' educations.

Its still sectioned as a tutorial, and to the best of my knowledge there was no provision in the negotiations for a cap to tutorial size only if it was for a TA run tutorial.

My point for the other two examples was that while their are enough TAs to make small classroom settings for those classes already, that is not the most effective way to run those tutorials. They are also more Q and A based than an actual tutorial, and usually involve slide shows that just go over concepts from that weeks lecture that people tend to have trouble with. In both cases while they are open to the whole class, probably only 40-50 people come out. While I don't have any data in regards to the actual number of people in either class, it seems stupid to divide such a small number among 8 or so TAs, when they have better things to do (regardless of if one of those things is marking assignments).

I know Science was apparently pretty bad for tutorial/ lab sizes when you went through it, but is it really that hard to believe that the department figured things out on their own without the need of the TAs union?

Originally Posted by sew12

I'm not scared either but I'm not sure what yelling at students and hand them biased literature is really going to do.

The union's fight is with the University, what exactly do they want the students to do about it?

One particular tactic that someone took issue with here a few days ago was a CUPE representative blatantly lying to students. They were handing out flyers in front of MUSC and telling people the TAs could be on strike Friday. This freaked out students in a large class who had a huge mid-term on Friday and thought it might not be happening. The blatant lies of the CUPE representative scared students and panicked them about a test they were supposed to have and needed to be studying for.

One particular tactic... LMAO. You mean it was ONE situation out of hundreds! Stop exaggerating things!

Originally Posted by kleung

They've threatened legal action against anyone who crosses the picket lines.

They have handed out manuals to picketers telling them to take pictures of any one crossing the picket lines, and to find out their names, addresses and licence plate numbers. This information is supposed to be posted on a website.

They have suggested that anyone crossing the pickets will have their right to vote on union matters removed.


http://www.macinsiders.com/showthread.php?t=2466 1

It makes sense, doesn't it? You can't exactly cross the picket lines and then gain the benefits once the union does it work. It's kind of counter intuititive.