Originally Posted by mike_302

^^ Frankly, in the end, all I regret about this government's decision to do this, is that hundreds of people will get a $1600 rebate and then drop out of school, or continue to be in the absolute bottom end of their class. Since debt seems to be a major global issue, and a major issue for the government of Ontario too, I think that means millions of dollars just went to waste.

It WILL happen. You can argue that I don't have "stats" cited to back them up, and I don't claim to either. Normally, this would be my pet peeve of a poster, but I'm not claiming to have stats that my proposed method is better. But here's my reasoning. If you think it's wrong, again, tell me, I'll shut up:

Probability that students are eligible for $1600 rebate {Extremely large} intersect with Probability that student drops out of university {between 10 and 20% at most Ontario universities, [1]}

Factor in the size of the population you're looking at... You just need 1 stats course to understand that means a lot of kids are getting tax payers money because they are assumed to be getting an education when they are in fact dropping out.

[1] http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...t-over-grades/

This is a decent argument but one major issue with this is, we don't and we probably will never know "Why" people drop out. We can't assume that most of them drop out cause they had too much fun and slacked off. People dropping out is due to a large contingent of reasons, most of them structural and not always necessarily the direct fault of the student.

If a student has anxiety issues and as the article you linked has developed mental health issues due to him moving from being a B+ HighSchool Student to C grade student in his first year, he/she should not be a write off. That's a separate issue where the onus is on the Institution and Government to bring these students back into the fold and give them an equal chance. Similarly recent Immigrants and Aboriginal Students have issues acclimatizing to the University culture that doesn't cater to a differentiated transitioning model.

But now I'm confused since there are two arguments I'm supposed to be addressing firstly those who meet the academic bottom line(which is around 5.0 I think) but linger at the C -> B- zone versus those who totally dropout whether forced to by the Institution or If they remove themselves. All of the above are definitely issues of productivity but there are a myriad of other solutions(I read this one paper about how inaccurate guidance counselling and parental pressure leads to people ending up in the wrong programs and then dropping out) that can be utilized first rather than arbitrarily recreating this Grant Program with a very rough metric of basic GPA.

Originally Posted by yaroslav64

Average means NOTHING in the long run.

Sure GPA doesn't matter in the long run, but to get an entry-level job (depending on what you are going for) it can be a huge factor, especially for jobs in the field of science.

When you graduate the majority of future employers dont care about your grades as long as you get the degree.

I really wouldn't rely on that.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

This is a decent argument but one major issue with this is, we don't and we probably will never know "Why" people drop out. We can't assume that most of them drop out cause they had too much fun and slacked off. People dropping out is due to a large contingent of reasons, most of them structural and not always necessarily the direct fault of the student.

If a student has anxiety issues and as the article you linked has developed mental health issues due to him moving from being a B+ HighSchool Student to C grade student in his first year, he/she should not be a write off. That's a separate issue where the onus is on the Institution and Government to bring these students back into the fold and give them an equal chance. Similarly recent Immigrants and Aboriginal Students have issues acclimatizing to the University culture that doesn't cater to a differentiated transitioning model.

But now I'm confused since there are two arguments I'm supposed to be addressing firstly those who meet the academic bottom line(which is around 5.0 I think) but linger at the C -> B- zone versus those who totally dropout whether forced to by the Institution or If they remove themselves. All of the above are definitely issues of productivity but there are a myriad of other solutions(I read this one paper about how inaccurate guidance counselling and parental pressure leads to people ending up in the wrong programs and then dropping out) that can be utilized first rather than arbitrarily recreating this Grant Program with a very rough metric of basic GPA.

Okay, I think we're along the same lines now... I'll give you that: I'm a strict kind of person with only so much sympathy in these cases. I can accommodate for some cases (a bad year for one reason or another), but I tend to take the hardline stance: If you're doing bad in school, and you aren't doing anything to improve it, then you don't (usually) deserve as much of a break as the person who is. Now the people who take offence to that because they have a tough life situation, you can attack me all you want... I am admitting to a hardline opinion, no one has to agree or disagree with it; I'm just imposing a "life isn't fair" sort of understanding on the real world, and trying to minimize the unfortunate outcomes from it.

so how do we apply for this if we don't have OSAP?

Mike, it is nice that you are opinionated. However, remarking upon the entirety of your contribution to this discussion, you seem to have missed the point of the tuition rebate entirely. Here is a pointer:

Issue: Inequality

Problem: Ontario students pay MORE for tuition ($6500) than any other province by roughly 30% on average. (note: The figures for average tuition payments in Canada are available here <http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/educ50a-eng.htm>, feel free to compare other provinces in the series at the left of the page to Ontario)

Solution: Offer a (roughly) 30% rebate on tuition to Ontario students.

Comment: EASY? yeas... Oversimplified? Only in-so-far as the fundamentals of any issue can be remarked as.

Mike, you talk a big game about academic merit, fairness and competition, yadda-yadda-yadda but nothing you have said factors into the issue at hand even remotely.... hahahahahaha

Next you'll be trying to tell me that {insert superior minority here}(s) should receive tuition exemption because they do so well in school and deserve so much more than everyone else.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

If a student has anxiety issues and as the article you linked has developed mental health issues due to him moving from being a B+ HighSchool Student to C grade student in his first year, he/she should not be a write off. That's a separate issue where the onus is on the Institution and Government to bring these students back into the fold and give them an equal chance. Similarly recent Immigrants and Aboriginal Students have issues acclimatizing to the University culture that doesn't cater to a differentiated transitioning model.

I'm sorry, what? The student has an issue, so it should be the government's responsibility?
Students have issues acclimatizing to a new culture, so they need to be coddled? Really?
Sorry to sidetrack, but that just makes not a damn bit of sense.

To anyone who picked up OSAP today, did you receive this rebate? I saw the line today for pickup and it was just insane.

edit: NVM

If we're going to pay off the remainder of our tuition with OSAP, will we get a cheque from the government with the amount that will be deducted from our tuition fees? Or should I tell OSAP to just put the loan in my bank account. How long will it take for the deduction to be calculated and accounted for in our fees?

just put it in you bank account. save yourself the time and energy of having to cash your cheque. plus it will come within a week verus having to get a cheque in the mail

If you guys want to know more about it, I suggest going to this site
http://www.ousa.ca/tuitiongrant/
It has everything you need to know about the rebate.

I want to know why independent students aren't eligible for this assistance, seeing as we often have even less parental support than the typical uni student and are often receiving higher amounts of OSAP to pay back. I support myself through university by working 20 hours a week (which pays my rent and food) and OSAP covers the rest. I may be four years out of university but I work just as hard to pay for school as anybody else and I need the money just as much.

Too bad Pinocchio didn't do this BEFORE tuition started its outrageous climb. It is disingenuous of the Ontario Liberals at best since they seemed content to look the other way while allowing universities to raise tuition up to an allowed 5% per annum. Had the Liberals taken action sooner and used this money from who-knows-where to increase direct subsidies in universities while placing a more stringent cap on allowable tuition increases, then this measure might not have been necessary.

can't wait to get this

You know, I wonder what effect this will have on tuition costs... if the university knows that each student will automatically have 1600$ extra, whats to stop them from closing the gap and just increasing fees? They know they can squeese an extra grand out of us no matter what... all else being equal..

I do support the absolute allocation of monies to education, which reduces the amount of money that gets spent on crap we may or may not agree with (wars, bailouts, other wasteful spending)

Originally Posted by RyanC

You know, I wonder what effect this will have on tuition costs... if the university knows that each student will automatically have 1600$ extra, whats to stop them from closing the gap and just increasing fees? They know they can squeese an extra grand out of us no matter what... all else being equal..

I do support the absolute allocation of monies to education, which reduces the amount of money that gets spent on crap we may or may not agree with (wars, bailouts, other wasteful spending)

Isn't the government still preventing universities from increasing their tuitions by my than 5% (Which for science students is an increase of a maximum of 250$). But I do agree that in the long run it will cause tuition to increase at a faster rate.

Originally Posted by BlakeM

I'm sorry, what? The student has an issue, so it should be the government's responsibility?
Students have issues acclimatizing to a new culture, so they need to be coddled? Really?
Sorry to sidetrack, but that just makes not a damn bit of sense.

Well Canada is an aspiring Social Democracy that covers quite a few social support programs. Just like it provides healthcare it also has a constitutional responsibility to create a better and more prosperous country through an educated workforce. This is especially important with the world moving towards this so called "knowledge economy". The government does already provide funding for many direct and indirect support systems within Canadian Education for that reason. If the quality or numbers of graduates is suffering because these students have "issues", it's not just the individual that will suffer; also the Government and Society in General. Educational attainment is also linked to higher tax returns/incomes, multiplier economic benefit and lower social support spending. If an investment into the PSE system right now stops students from dropping out and getting back on their feet than it's economical for the government in the long run.

Similarly recent immigrants, international students and aboriginal students among others also have acclimatization issues that need to be dealt with because as a society we believe in providing an equal platform for people to work for their success.

In an interesting dichotomy, one would think that a more individualistic, dog eat dog world like USA would be different, but in reality their intervention programs are much much better funded and effective than anything we have in Canadian Universities.

As for RyanC's question, Jhan is right. The Government has put a 5% maximum cap on how much tuition can go up by each year.

Also Taylor/Kudos; Tuition has been on the rise unchecked and sometimes even without limitations with all three Governments in power. NDP, Tories and Grits; especially since the 90's.