Originally Posted by lawleypop

Fair enough, but if the guy who said "what's the difference" legitimately thought he was giving out factual information, he would have said, "I AM giving out factual information" and not, "what's the difference?"

He clearly knew what he was saying...

That's true, and I did mention the importance of that distinction as well. Its not the 2 minutes that matters, but the fact that if you only hear part of the message you might think it was a Friday morning deadline, which is a big deal, because that's clearly not the case.

Originally Posted by dsahota

We have a large group of volunteers who have come forward who are interested in getting the word out about the status of negotiations to people. One of the larger more focussed groups is actually of undergraduates who are independent, but we email them all of our bargaining bulletins and presentations so they have access to information to they can create their own materials. We do try to take a hands off approach to people who want to get involved and spread their own message, and instead just make sure they have access to the latest information. Of course one of the risks of this is that any incorrect information put out by any affiliated group will reflect poorly on our team.

Originally the deadline had been talked about for on or about October 30th, when it actually got set for October 31, I didn't get this communicated quickly and clearly to some of the volunteers (including the undergrad group). So in short, the guy saying there was a possible strike on the 30th was wrong, he had outdated information he thought was still correct. We definitely had a communication lapse after the 3 days of mediation, which was my responsibility to maintain. I have now spoken with all of the volunteers to make sure they make it clear that a strike can only occur AFTER Oct 31 12:01am.

I can't undo the wrong things that were said and the angst I'm sure students feel whenever they hear about a potential strike. I apologize for the lapse in communication and certainly will make sure that during and after the next two days of mediation, we get news out quicker and clearer to everyone.

Sorry Derek, but that answer is completely inadequate. He was handing out pamphlets that clearly said the date and time on it. And when I approached him and said no, it's 12:01am Saturday he said yeah same thing as Friday, what's the difference? He clearly knew that he was falsifying the information and to what purpose - the only one that I can see is to scare people.

If your organization is using volunteers, you are still responsible for them and the information they disseminate.

The benefits deficits are part of our budget process, that I can't post that document online, but if you're interested you can talk to our treasurer. His name is Nghi and his email is: [email protected] g.

Ah, I know Nghi. He's such a great guy.

While I think that the CUPE volunteers should be well trained prior to providing information to all students, if you're working in a large organization, sometimes it's difficult to ensure that people are following through and aren't inserting their personal biases. Even with a small group, sometimes it's hard to make sure that volunteers are sticking to the script.

I think in this case, the false information has caused a lot of panic amongst students which isn't fair to the students.

Originally Posted by PTGregD

Short version: CUPE/Unions Suck, and I'm not sure how many T.A.s will actually be striking. I think you'll find most of them continuing to work.

I'm a bit confused as to why everyone is assuming that most TAs will continue to work and not strike. The members of CUPE 3906 Unit 1 gave a strong strike mandate. Wouldn't that mean that the majority (most) TAs voted for a strike?

If someone could clear this up, that would be helpful. I talked to a professor about all this talk of TAs continuing to work because they don't support the strike, and she pointed out the vote. Seems a bit contradictory.

Originally Posted by AlienSummer

I'm a bit confused as to why everyone is assuming that most TAs will continue to work and not strike. The members of CUPE 3906 Unit 1 gave a strong strike mandate. Wouldn't that mean that the majority (most) TAs voted for a strike?

If someone could clear this up, that would be helpful. I talked to a professor about all this talk of TAs continuing to work because they don't support the strike, and she pointed out the vote. Seems a bit contradictory.

We did get a very strong strike mandate because our membership does support what the bargaining team is fighting for. What's hard for a lot of TAs is that they're caught between their academic life, genuine care for education, and their own needs for decent compensation and reasonable workloads.

Here are several reasons TAs often find it difficult to go on strike, even though they strongly support what the bargaining team is fighting for.

1) Employment supervisors for your TA are often the same professors who you need to write reference letters and recommend you for scholarships. There is a genuine fear, especially amongst international TAs, that they will see a backlash from their supervisors if they go on strike. In the past we have seen individual TAs targeted with academic retribution, but that has primarily been members of the bargaining team and local executive. Of course, any sort of retribution goes against various labour laws and could be grieved. The hard part is by the time it gets sorted out, you may no longer even be a graduate student.

All the members of the bargaining team understood this risk when they were elected, but we remain committed to working for our members, no matter what the academic consequences are.

2) TAs are students too and care about the students they teach. Its a difficult decision to make to go on strike, as there is inherently an effect on undergraduate students.

3) Strike pay might not cover the bills. While the total amount of strike pay is comparable to TA pay for a graduate student TA, over the course of a month, there will still be a couple of hundred dollars difference ($250 is the exact number I believe). TAs can apply to a hardship fund which can bridge that gap, but there's not enough money to cover everyone.

So in short, going on strike has significant financial and academic consequences. Its a decision not taken lightly by anyone, even if the package offered by the employer is absolutely terrible.

Originally Posted by AlienSummer

I'm a bit confused as to why everyone is assuming that most TAs will continue to work and not strike. The members of CUPE 3906 Unit 1 gave a strong strike mandate. Wouldn't that mean that the majority (most) TAs voted for a strike?

The vote is kind of an issue. It was held over August and September, and in the end, CUPE announced that they had won "a strong strike mandate". No results were released nor any indication of voter turnout or breakdown.

The explanation was that releasing such information would be detrimental to their bargaining position, and my understanding is that only a handful of people know the actual result.

Now, if you were sitting here and every single week you're fed the same "in solidarity!" & "we are transparent and extra-democratic" lines, wouldn't you want to start questioning things? Don't you think that maybe we should be concerned that the union's unwritten "policy" contradicts their "democratic values"?

While I'm convinced that the union won their mandate, I have a hard time believing that it was anywhere near as strong as they claim.

Originally Posted by AlienSummer

I'm a bit confused as to why everyone is assuming that most TAs will continue to work and not strike. The members of CUPE 3906 Unit 1 gave a strong strike mandate. Wouldn't that mean that the majority (most) TAs voted for a strike?

If someone could clear this up, that would be helpful. I talked to a professor about all this talk of TAs continuing to work because they don't support the strike, and she pointed out the vote. Seems a bit contradictory.

Well, first, you need to realize that not everyone turns out to vote. Assuming a 50% voter turn out (Which I feel is VERY generous), you would only need about 25% of the total union to vote in favour of a strike mandate (I'm not sure if they need more than majority, but this example is just illustrating a point).

So as far as that example is concerned, only 25% of T.A.'s voted to strike. What in reality happened, I have no idea, but I haven't spoken to any T.A.s who have told me they would strike, and lets be honest, the free rider problem is in favour of students. I'm going to work and get paid; if they union wins, I get the benefits anyways, so win:win.

No point for me to picket!

Originally Posted by dsahota

One of the things that's weird about tuition and TAs is that the employer (McMaster University) both gets to set the cost of living (through tuition) and the wage rate. So effectively they can give money with one hand, and take it back with the other. This practice makes it pointless for us to negotiate a wage increase (one of the reasons why we've proposed a freeze) and instead requires we tackle the issue differently. What we've actually proposed is a bursary like pay out each year that covers a flat dollar amount of the tuition increase for each graduate student TA.

Another thing that is weird about graduate school is that they actually restrict you from working on/off campus beyond your TA. If actually do go and work a part-time job or something else, McMaster will actually take away all or part of our funding. Because of this and the fact that graduate students are required to be on campus through the summer,. the only way graduate students can possibly make up for increases in tuition is through increases in scholarship / bursary or the compensation from their TA.

I work for McMaster, I'm only allowed to work 10 hours per week on campus, at $10 an hour. OSAP will only give me $200 per year.
I'm not going on strike.

When money was tight for me last year, I worked a second job off campus for 10 hours a week at minimum wage.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

OSAP will only give me $200 per year.

I don't want to be the guy who has to say this, but there has to be a reason this is true...OSAP calculates what you get based on your (parents') financial situation.

-OSAP gives you a $50 allowance per week, without deducting from your OSAP...so you make roughly $50 of income, which OSAP deducts 1/3 of from your entitlement.

$50 * 52 weeks (and I know it's less than this) = about $2500...and a third of that is is about $800, which means your OSAP entitlement would be at most roughly $1000-$1100 even if you didn't have the job.


Now I don't know your special circumstances or anything, and I realize that often times your parents' income isn't a good indicator of how much they'll support your eduaction, so I don't want to sound like a jerk here...but I'm just saying. That 'special circumstance' has nothing to do with what you may or may not deserve, and hence what TAs may or may not deserve.


Myself, I applied for OSAP and got peanuts, because my TA income forces significant deductions...and otherwise, I demonstrate significant financial need. And as was mentioned, if I work a 2nd job off-campus, I not only get deductions from OSAP, but also from my TA-ship...so unless I get a 2nd job which pays in excess of the value of the TAship for the year (about $7600) then I'd operate at a loss and have no incentive to do so. (And in the case that I did find a job that paid in excess of the TA-ship, I'd no longer have the TA-ship)

Originally Posted by PTGregD

Well, first, you need to realize that not everyone turns out to vote. Assuming a 50% voter turn out (Which I feel is VERY generous), you would only need about 25% of the total union to vote in favour of a strike mandate (I'm not sure if they need more than majority, but this example is just illustrating a point).

So as far as that example is concerned, only 25% of T.A.'s voted to strike. What in reality happened, I have no idea, but I haven't spoken to any T.A.s who have told me they would strike, and lets be honest, the free rider problem is in favour of students. I'm going to work and get paid; if they union wins, I get the benefits anyways, so win:win.

No point for me to picket!

I dont understand why so many TA's wouldn't come out to vote if they are against the strike. if i were in the position where i didnt want to strike, id make sure to vote.

Originally Posted by brendanp

I dont understand why so many TA's wouldn't come out to vote if they are against the strike. if i were in the position where i didnt want to strike, id make sure to vote.

Because I'd say many TAs who are quote unquote 'against the strike' are actually indifferent.

Like me, I don't really care if they strike because I'm crossing the line in the event of a strike. Sure, it's stupid and I should vote against it anyway (and I likely will), but in all honesty it's not a top priority.


On the other hand, every single person who is pro-strike is not in a state of indifference...they'l l take the initiative to vote 'pro-strike.'

Originally Posted by brendanp

I dont understand why so many TA's wouldn't come out to vote if they are against the strike. if i were in the position where i didnt want to strike, id make sure to vote.

They also held the vote in the summer, before a lot of TAs (i.e. me) had received their positions for the school year.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I don't want to be the guy who has to say this, but there has to be a reason this is true...OSAP calculates what you get based on your (parents') financial situation.

-OSAP gives you a $50 allowance per week, without deducting from your OSAP...so you make roughly $50 of income, which OSAP deducts 1/3 of from your entitlement.

$50 * 52 weeks (and I know it's less than this) = about $2500...and a third of that is is about $800, which means your OSAP entitlement would be at most roughly $1000-$1100 even if you didn't have the job.


Now I don't know your special circumstances or anything, and I realize that often times your parents' income isn't a good indicator of how much they'll support your eduaction, so I don't want to sound like a jerk here...but I'm just saying. That 'special circumstance' has nothing to do with what you may or may not deserve, and hence what TAs may or may not deserve.


Myself, I applied for OSAP and got peanuts, because my TA income forces significant deductions...and otherwise, I demonstrate significant financial need. And as was mentioned, if I work a 2nd job off-campus, I not only get deductions from OSAP, but also from my TA-ship...so unless I get a 2nd job which pays in excess of the value of the TAship for the year (about $7600) then I'd operate at a loss and have no incentive to do so. (And in the case that I did find a job that paid in excess of the TA-ship, I'd no longer have the TA-ship)

My dad makes a decent amount of money, and since I'm not four years out of high school yet (I'm in my fourth year), OSAP looks at what my parents make. My dad gives me about $500 towards tuition. I tried to talk to the financial aid office about this but basically OSAP will only give me like $200 per year because my dad makes too much money (regardless if he helps pay for my tuition or not) :( I was able to get a McWork/Work-Study job, but that's the best financial aid could do for me.

I only mentioned OSAP because, like many TAs, I have a limited income too.