Becoming a grad student is an option. You can't expect to be able to survive off of a ~10 hour per week job (IF you get to become a TA at all; btw, how are the other grad students that aren't TAs getting along without TAship?). Some financial planning should be done to make sure you don't have to depend on this semi-job.

IF the issue at hand is really the fact that grad students are having a tough time coping with living on the "little" they get, why should we be paying for their poor planning?

As for the whole "they do more than what they get paid for" argument, welcome to the real world! I have to prepare for every shift at my job, I don't get paid for it and I don't whine about it. Why? Because I knew that was involved in the job.

Originally Posted by DannyV

Becoming a grad student is an option. You can't expect to be able to survive off of a ~10 hour per week job (IF you get to become a TA at all; btw, how are the other grad students that aren't TAs getting along without TAship?). Some financial planning should be done to make sure you don't have to depend on this semi-job.

Some graduate students get NSERC, OGS, CIHR if they're lucky.

Unfortunately not everyone is able to get a 10.5 to 11 (on a 12 pt scale) (the cut-offs are lower, but I gave a more realistic estimate) + with research experience in undergrad.

Originally Posted by micadjems

MACINSIDERS GET TOGETHER!!!!



Can we all wear really bright colours so people pay attention to *us*?

Well, a lot of us do have pretty bright coloured rep suits, and I'm sure everyone still has Welcome Week shirts (for faculties, residences and SOCS). Something that just screams the fact that we are students, and we're the ones who are being hurt by the union's actions.

I'm not sure if rep-suiting up is appropriate for the occasion. Keep in mind you're representing a faculty, or in your case, a student society, whose opinions and beliefs may differ quite significantly from your own.

are they bargaining the whole night (24hours)?

Originally Posted by manu

are they bargaining the whole night (24hours)?

Yes, they'll be bargaining straight to the deadline.

Originally Posted by InYoutoGive

I'm not sure if rep-suiting up is appropriate for the occasion. Keep in mind you're representing a faculty, or in your case, a student society, whose opinions and beliefs may differ quite significantly from your own.

Fair point, although I think the vast majority of students are against the strike.

I still think that residence/faculty shirts are a good idea though.

Originally Posted by Taunton

While I'm definitely in a different program, I'm doing school, plus two (2) jobs, and fairly heavy extra-curriculars. While each person's capacity is different, it's certainly possible for a TA to get another job... though it may not be so in every case.

Possible, perhaps...a wise decision, certainly not.

TA-ships are granted as a means of financial aid...that's what people neglect to realize. Would people feel better if I got a $5000 scholarship, and then declared that I only made $10 per hour as a TA? Because in reality, that's what's happening: Mac is giving me a big scholarship, and just 'hoping I do good work as a TA.'

If I have a significant income from any other source, it's deducted from my financial aid (analogously, undergrads have OSAP deductions). I mean, I can't legally make any less than what's been promised me this year since I've signed a contract, but in coming years if I have significant income, I won't be awarded a TA-ship of the same value.

Originally Posted by DannyV

Becoming a grad student is an option. You can't expect to be able to survive off of a ~10 hour per week job (IF you get to become a TA at all; btw, how are the other grad students that aren't TAs getting along without TAship?).

People who aren't awarded a TA-ship don't get it for one of two reasons:

1) They're quite wealthy, and/or turn down the TA-ship (so they have more time to themselves and their studies).
2) They haven't earned one, academically...though I believe most grad students get a TA-ship, some with poor grades for instance, will get 'last choice' of TA-ship and may be left without one. This is no different from winning a scholarship.

Some financial planning should be done to make sure you don't have to depend on this semi-job.

This remark is naive, and to be honest, I even find it a little offensive.

My 'rough financial situation' has nothing to do with my financial planning, or lack-there-of. When people don't have mommy and daddy to pay for their education, they have to make ends meet for themselves. (And infact, in situations like mine, I support not only myself, but my mother, two sisters, and autistic brother).

Sure, I can sit back and plan what to do with my excess of about 45 dollars per month. But no amount of planning or economic know-how is going to turn 45 dollars into 450 dollars to pay my rent****. And no, I'm not going to jeopardize my academic status (and above all, my health) to get a second job only to lose out on money I'm already getting anyway...it's kind of like a welfare argument. (And actually, if you count tutoring students on the side as jobs, then I technically work 6 jobs, since I regularly tutor 5 students...I'm certainly making every effort to earn 'under the table' cash that will not be deducted from my financial aid)

EDIT: ***NOTE: These figures are fictitious...I'm not claiming I only make and excess of $45 per month.

I'm not saying this to complain about what I'm getting, or say my situation is so terrible and give you a sob story...I can get by, I'm lucky enough...instead, I'm merely trying to illustrate that financial planning and 'wise decisions' don't always have much to do with how comfortably one lives.

I hope you can understand that it's quite insulting to hear that "I'm just an idiot who can't handle money" because I have financial difficulty. No, I didn't have a nest egg set aside for my education, because my father passed away...that was the way it was for my undergrad (OSAP) and my grad studies (McMaster's funding).


I suppose the answer is "If things are so rough, you shouldn't have come to grad school." But if I've proven myself valuable to McMaster, and as such McMaster has promised me financial security in exchange for:

a) My TA services
b) My research (NOTE: Here's something else people neglect: All of my research is the property of McMaster University. Infact the only thing I'd ever own for myself, is my finalized thesis.) This is a huge difference between undergraduate and graduate studies.

Note: b) is another issue that differentiates TAing from conventional work. What, is Mac going to 'fire me' and find a new replacement grad student? Sure, they'd find a replacement since I'm sure there's at least one who got a rejection letter...but given that I got an acceptance and they didn't, Mac has decided that I'm more valuable to them...so I'm not quite as expendible as it seems.

The specific breakdown isn't what matters here...think about it, does it really matter if Mac takes 20 of the dollars I make every hour and just hands it over to me at the beginning of the year (Hence I only make 20 dollars an hour)? No, the end result is the same: I'm being given money to help me out financially, in exchange for my services. The only reason Mac hasn't handed me a cheque for $7600 (the value of my TA-ship) at the beginning of the semester, is that the quote unquote "bad TAs" wouldn't put as much (ie. any) effort into it.

Take home point: My personal opinions aside: It isn't reasonable for students to be leverage for either party...the fact that students may be hurt in the process of a strike shouldn't be reason for Mac to meet CUPE's demands...but the fact that students may be hurt in the process also shouldn't be reason for TAs to receive an unfair contract.

Your personal circumstances aside, Mowicz, my point still stands.

No one forced any of you to become grad students, you chose to. You must have thought about why you want to be a grad student and how you are going to pay for it. Many grad students see their post-secondary studies as an investment in their futures do they not? Would there not be some planning with any investment? Why do some people go out and work for a year or two before returning to continue their studies?

Many of the students you TA are probably in the same financially precarious situation you found yourself in. I know I am; and yet somehow we make it work. I have friends who are TAs, grad students and part time workers, so it can be done. They understand that McMaster gave them merely a job, a student job being paid 2 to 4 times minimum wage.

In the end, your point is well taken: both McMaster and the local unions at McMaster profit from students, but neither give two flying fracks about them except when it serves their respective purpose.

Originally Posted by DannyV

Becoming a grad student is an option. You can't expect to be able to survive off of a ~10 hour per week job (IF you get to become a TA at all; btw, how are the other grad students that aren't TAs getting along without TAship?). Some financial planning should be done to make sure you don't have to depend on this semi-job.

IF the issue at hand is really the fact that grad students are having a tough time coping with living on the "little" they get, why should we be paying for their poor planning?

As for the whole "they do more than what they get paid for" argument, welcome to the real world! I have to prepare for every shift at my job, I don't get paid for it and I don't whine about it. Why? Because I knew that was involved in the job.

I agree 100% !

Just to be upfront, I am a TA, I am a graduate student, and i did my undergraduate here at McMaster too. I am very familiar with the facts, issues and fallacies that have been circulating around campus as of late.

This is the first time in ages I have visited MacInsiders, and of course the first time I have seen this outlet for (mostly undergraduate) students to express their concerns for the possible upcoming TA strike. Frankly, I am very surprised and somewhat disappointed in the attitudes and narrow-minded thinking and ignorance of the important issues behind this clash between Mac and CUPE 3906.
I have written a long message, please take the time to read it. It might shed some light onto the issue and give you something new to think about.

1) Salary
There have been alot of concerns that TAs dont deserve ~$40/hr and asking for more is selfish and rude

Well, how does one determine how much a TA should be paid? One way is to compare the salary at mac to TAs at other comparable universities (Other top Ontario Universities) The salary is calculated by [wage rate] x [hours compensated]. The truth is that at McMaster TAs are paid for the lowest number of hours, 260, and not 280 which is the standard in this work sector. The point is that discussing $40/hr is only half of the equation; you simply cannot ignore the other half. When you look at the total compensation (rate*hours) McMaster is the lowest (Undergraduate) or near the lowest (international/domestic graduate) - this is fact and not propaganda.

Of course, people feel that compared to other jobs (unionized and non unionized) the TA wage RATE is high in comparison. This is TRUE. Please consider that most jobs are full time so its hard to make a comparison between 260hrs and ~1900hrs.
So why not get a second job? a TA will LOSE THEIR FUNDING (both external NSERC, CIHR, SHERC ect AND internal) if they get a second job >10hrs/week. This is called the '10 hour rule' and has been a long standing issue at this university. Of course, you can get paid under the table, but it is ILLIGAL to not pay taxes. The 'get a second job' argument is purely based on ignorance.
Please remember that a TA is a person in their 20s, some in their 30s, who are at a point in their life where they are financially independent and faced with impending financial hurdles. This stage in life is when people want to a) get married b) buy a home c) buy a car d) have children ect. There is a certain financial strain on these people that is heavier than most people in their undergraduate careers, and it must be recognised. One cannot say that since they (as a 18-21year old) can survive with $10/hr * 15hrs/week then TAs can too. Its apples and oranges. Of course not all TAs have the same financial positions, but many do and we must think of the typical cases.
Of course people have said that going to school is a choice and if you cant afford it dont go. I couldnt agree with this more, I am all for financial planning.
However, when a person is budgeting/planning for graduate school they are told by each school what their funding will be. This funding is TA Wage + Scholarship - Tuition. The combination of these three factors is effectively a salary for going to school, and its ~23k/yr (it varies per faculty, external funding ect). McMaster has decided that tuition will increase across the board EVERY YEAR because now its legal for them to do so. Again, fact and not propaganda.
23k/yr is not alot of money, and making even less each year is unacceptable - especially since most graduate students put in far more than 40hrs/week. Even though its "school" its still early stages of an academic career, and must be looked upon in that light. Graduate school is very very different than undergraduate school. In my opinion, and in the opinions of almost all my peers (many who are STRONGLY ANTI CUPE) think of graduate school as a job and not school.

2) Other issues nobody talks about
PhD students who dont finish in 4 years are not given TA jobs in yr 5,6. This is an issue CUPE3906 is fighting to rectify in the new contract. These people are the most experienced, most educated and based on age, most needy of these jobs. It is very common for PhD to extend over 4 years. McMaster DOES NOT want these people to get TA positions because
a)they can hire undergraduate for far less wage
b)they dont want PhD students to try to stay longer than 4 years, which they think a TA ship will entice them to do... which IMO is complete BS
This is why CUPE is trying to raise undergrad TA wage, equal pay for equal work. They want to stop the university from hiring less experienced TAs (lowering the quality of YOUR EDUCATION) to save money.
Tutorial sizes are constantly growing, every year they are bigger. The amount of time per student to mark, answer emails, discuss problems and EDUCATE is being reduced - lowering the quality of YOUR EDUCATION. The amount of TA positions is not increased in an indexed fashion to match the number of new undergrads. Again, fact not propaganda.

3) Benefits
Over the year the union has developed a contract that has the university paying partially for the benefits (vision, dental ect) for the TAs. The amount in the contract is a fixed dollar amount that the university gives to the union per year to distribute among its members. However, the university has proposed a 0% increase to this fund for 2-3 years, and at the same time has increase TA enrolment by several hundreds of students. The effect of this is less benefits per union member. All the union is asking is to properly index this lump sum such that they dont have to cut benefits. You would be hard pressed to argue this is unreasonable...

4) The union is asking for so much money in a time of financial hardship, its ridiculous and selfish
At first glance this is a reasonable conclusion. But when you look at the actual numbers one quickly realizes that money is not the issue.
The university budget is ~800 Million per year. The union is asking for ~1.6million yr1, ~1.2 million year2 .. less than 3 million - thats about a quarter of a percent for 2700 people who are students & employees.
I please urge everyone to go investigate how the university spends its money, and what it prioritizes. The reports and minutes of meeting for the universities various financial committees are available on the website - just search for them. Im not even going to get into the Dr. P. George bonuses/pensions because its a tired point, but there are construction projects that are planned to and projected to lose TENS OF MILLIONS, hundreds of thousands in landscaping, millions in new parking machines ect. My point is that times are not that tight for the university, they had a SURPLUS last year and expect the same this year. Their yearly budgets ASSUME a 5% increase to all staff salary annually - the current offer has these 2700 staff losing 5% annually.

Sadly, and most importantly, most undergraduates are pissed off. They are pissed off because their school will be disrupted because of a disagreement between two other groups. They are caught in the middle and dont deserve to suffer. Nobody wants to wait to park, nobody wants to lose labs/tutorials.
NOBODY disagrees with this. A strike is miserable for everyone! I would say mostly for the poor people having to walk outside in November and December
The reality is that getting angry with CUPE, deciding to scab, harassing picketers is only going to make things worse and drag on. By doing these things you are actively deciding to extend any possible strike. The fastest way to end the dispute is to add pressure to McMaster to give back the money they just took away from the TAs and let everyone get back to work.

Also, any comments on the actually number of hours a TA works based on individual cases is a moot point. Last spring the union surveyed hundreds of TAs and the most common result was over work. Of course some work less, but some work more. The union is working to protect those who are being exploited - and preserve the quality of education!

Finally, I just wanted to say that most people who dont fully understand what the union does or what they stand for should really take some times and learn. Attend the meetings, post questions on the blog, drop by the office. Be very critical, ask for proof. You will find that the people working at the union are all very logical normal people who are more than happy to discuss concerns. Its unfortunate that this anti union attitude is pushed so strongly by McMaster messaging because it really tricks people into thinking McMaster cares about you as a person and not just as a student number who pays tuition.
Remember one thing, the mandate of a university is to teach and produce research - not to just make money.

I gots to get me some of that Kool Aid.

Of course, people feel that compared to other jobs (unionized and non unionized) the TA wage RATE is high in comparison. This is TRUE. Please consider that most jobs are full time so its hard to make a comparison between 260hrs and ~1900hrs.

You're right, it is hard to make a comparison between the two. But how is it it fair for someone working 260 hours to make the same amount as those busting their ass for 1900 hours. Also, you're still students, and for a part time job, $40 / hr is un-fracking-believable.

The union keeps talking about being treated fairly, explain to me how you dare to complain when you're getting 2 - 4 times minimum wage. What kind of terrible and unsafe working conditions warrant such an inflated wage?

The 'get a second job' argument is purely based on ignorance.

It's easy to call an opinion you don't agree with ignorant. Are you asking to get rid of the "10 Hour Rule" ?

This stage in life is when people want to a) get married b) buy a home c) buy a car d) have children ect

Do all grad students live in this fantastical world where they are not aware of the constraints staying in school puts them under? Sounds to me like they need to reasses their priorities.

23k/yr is not alot of money, and making even less each year is unacceptable - especially since most graduate students put in far more than 40hrs/week. Even though its "school" its still early stages of an academic career, and must be looked upon in that light

We are looking at it in that light. You're still students! The university isn't going to pay you for going to school, you pay it. The university pays you to work. If you don't work, you don't get paid. Welcome to the real world. This is where the whole financial planning aspect comes into play.

PhD students who dont finish in 4 years are not given TA jobs in yr 5,6.

From the expired Collective Agreement (http://www.cupe3906.org/images/stori...tract06-09.pdf)

Article XII 12.02(c)
Full time graduate students in the fifth or sixth year of study in their Doctoral programme wanting to be considered for a Teaching Assistantship position will so advise the Chair (or equivalent), in writing, of the department in which he/she is registered by June 1. Teaching Assistantship vacancies in each department (or program) may be offered to qualified fifth or sixth year full time Doctoral students who have indicated that they want to be considered and who are registered within that same department (or program). Such appointments are at the full and exclusive discretion of the University.

It seems to me if the PhD student is qualified and follows the procedure, there is a chance to get a TAship. Your statement completely negates the existence of this clause and misinforms those reading it.

Tutorial sizes are constantly growing, every year they are bigger. The amount of time per student to mark, answer emails, discuss problems and EDUCATE is being reduced - lowering the quality of YOUR EDUCATION.

PLEASE STOP HIDING BEHIND MY EDUCATION. Let me worry about that. You're not doing this for us, you're doing it for your own reasons. We can debate what those reasons REALLY are but there's no need to get into that.

The reality is that getting angry with CUPE, deciding to scab, harassing picketers is only going to make things worse and drag on. By doing these things you are actively deciding to extend any possible strike. The fastest way to end the dispute is to add pressure to McMaster to give back the money they just took away from the TAs and let everyone get back to work.

McMaster isn't stopping anyone from going back to work. It's entirely up to you.

Its unfortunate that this anti union attitude is pushed so strongly by McMaster messaging because it really tricks people into thinking McMaster cares about you as a person and not just as a student number who pays tuition.

Your propaganda is not welcome here. McMaster isn't pushing an anti-union sentiment. The students expressing this sentiment do it of their own accord.
I don't expect the university to tuck me in at night or read me a story. The university is a cold, faceless institution which is allowing me to learn the basics of what I need to start my non-academic career.

How is it that undergraduate students getting angry with CUPE is "actively deciding to extend any possible strike"? That is absolutely ludicrous and inflammatory.

I come from a large family with many PhDs and other "extended" degrees within it (docs, lawyers, etc); I would disagree that it is common for PhDs to take more than 4 years to complete. Perhaps there is something wrong at McMaster?

Oh, and about your points regarding buying homes, and getting married and having children, and going to school? Those are called "lifestyle choices". It is a matter of setting priorities in one's life, and waiting until an appropriate time -- I speak from experience. I'm here working on my third degree.

This is why CUPE is trying to raise undergrad TA wage, equal pay for equal work. They want to stop the university from hiring less experienced TAs (lowering the quality of YOUR EDUCATION) to save money.

This is the point that probably upset me the most in your post. It seems to be a pretty general consensus that Undergraduate TAs do a much better job than graduate TAs (at least from some of the other threads on this board). All my best TAs have been undergraduate students, who aside from caring more (in personal experience) happen to have the benefit of having completed the same courses we're doing now, often under the same professors. They're able to tell us things about testing styles of the profs, able to tell us what material won't be covered in depth on tests, good places to study, etc. Plus there is the fact that the material for a first year course is fresher in the mind of a third year than a master's student.

Financial needs of graduate students aside, I think one of the best things the University could do to improve education is to hire more Undergraduate TAs.

(No offense meant, Mowicz. From everything you've posted before hand you seem like an excellent TA.)