Western society likes to paint racism with a white face. Examples are always skewed to make it seem like white people, males in particular, are the offenders. I understand that considering where things came from(slavery, ect...), it would make some sense that the campaigns were focused a bit more at helping white people get rid of ancient racists ideas that had been passed down behind closed doors through family.

I come from a mildly diverse place, but coming to mac has really exposed me to a lot of cultures I would have never seen or interacted with. The most eye opening thing is that I have found that every culture is racist and prejudiced. The media has shown racism to be something white people had a monopoly on, but prejudice seems to cross all borders, and transcend all groups. Sadly, one of the common threads across all groups. Now not everyone is that way, I understand that.

It is sad to hear people say ignorant things, but at the same time, having it reassure me that deep down we are all the same, well I guess that is the silver lining on the cloud.



Oh yeah and the easiest way to find something out about someone, as shocking as this may seem, is to simply ask them. Making judgments on their appearance, last name, and even actions can be misleading. I sing in a christian church choir every sunday, but assuming I am christian would be incorrect. Go figure.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Odd, you are saying you can't figure that out by my last name?

Huzaifa my man...isn't this statement racist?

I mean, suppose you have someone named Muhammed Ahmed (fictitious name)...it's certainly not politically correct to assume they're of the Islamic faith, is it? I think you know I'm certainly not concerned with being politically correct (we had a discussion in regards to this before). But how do I know if our friend Muhammed here is going to be offended if I assume he's muslim, or offended if I don't?


It's exactly like I mentioned earlier in this thread...although at least in the case of religion, I can understand why someone takes pride in it, since it's a personal decision, etc.

Is there racism at Mac? Yes. I see it every day. Racism does not just include explicitly discriminatory acts (which is a pretty 'grey' term anyway, as we really need to define what's explicit and what isn't). For example, I see plenty of groups of Korean students, Cantonese students, Punjabi students, Egyptian students, etc. speaking in their own languages in their own groups, leaving someone who isn't of that ethnicity out of the conversation. Isn't that discriminatory?

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I always wondered about that. It's "politically" okay to call someone "black" or "white", but not "brown". I'm curious why this is.

I've never heard about any issue with it.

That being said, how exactly do you classify someone as "brown"? "Black" people (in North America) are somewhat more homogenous in terms of cultural and ethnic identity, and "White" people (from North America and Europe) are roughly as ethnically diverse as the various peoples from the Indian subcontinent.
The term "Brown" isn't just applied to people from the Indian subcontinent, though - and that's what could be seen as implicitly racist about it. While it may be easy to mistake a German from an Austrian, it's not quite as easy to mistake an Arab from a Malayali or a Tamil.

I'm speaking strictly on a basis of observed anthropological differences, and to group people so diverse within one group seems to be implicitly discriminatory. I know I'm not being particularly clear, but I haven't had any tea yet, so...

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Is there racism at Mac? Yes. I see it every day. Racism does not just include explicitly discriminatory acts (which is a pretty 'grey' term anyway, as we really need to define what's explicit and what isn't). For example, I see plenty of groups of Korean students, Cantonese students, Punjabi students, Egyptian students, etc. speaking in their own languages in their own groups, leaving someone who isn't of that ethnicity out of the conversation. Isn't that discriminatory?



I've never heard about any issue with it.

That being said, how exactly do you classify someone as "brown"? "Black" people (in North America) are somewhat more homogenous in terms of cultural and ethnic identity, and "White" people (from North America and Europe) are roughly as ethnically diverse as the various peoples from the Indian subcontinent.
The term "Brown" isn't just applied to people from the Indian subcontinent, though - and that's what could be seen as implicitly racist about it. While it may be easy to mistake a German from an Austrian, it's not quite as easy to mistake an Arab from a Malayali or a Tamil.

I'm speaking strictly on a basis of observed anthropological differences, and to group people so diverse within one group seems to be implicitly discriminatory. I know I'm not being particularly clear, but I haven't had any tea yet, so...

I came from a pretty "brown" school and a variety of ethnic groups: Indian, Pakistani, Iraqi, Guyanese, Arab, Tamil, and Sri Lankan considered themselves "brown" and had "brown jams" (in their own words). I would disagree that black people are more homogenous than other races, there are many cultural differences from country to country.

Like I said earlier, I think it's more offensive to call a "brown" person Indian when they're not from India. Especially if the term "brown" isn't used a derogatory manner.

Originally Posted by Jay

I came from a pretty "brown" school and a variety of ethnic groups: Indian, Pakistani, Iraqi, Guyanese, Arab, Tamil, and Sri Lankan considered themselves "brown" and had "brown jams" (in their own words). I would disagree that black people are more homogenous than other races, there are many cultural differences from country to country.

Like I said earlier, I think it's more offensive to call a "brown" person Indian when they're not from India. Especially if the term "brown" isn't used a derogatory manner.

i. I explicitly specified 'black' people from North America. Due to various historical factors, there's more of a collective 'African American/Canadian' culture. I never referred to Africans from the continent itself, who hardly share a common culture. Many groups (even within an ethnolinguistic stratum) are divided into tribes, clans, etc. It's like the situation we're seeing in Central / South Asian countries like Afghanistan, only on a larger scale.

ii. Regardless of what they called themselves, their individual ethnic origins are broad-based. "Indian" as an ethnic term is relatively broad-based as well, (as is "Pakistani").

It's easier to relate to a native-born Canadian that you're "Indian" or "Pakistani" rather than "Punjabi", and even easier to relate that you're 'brown' rather than either of those terms.
So, it's hardly more racist to call someone 'brown' or 'Indian', as both terms are pretty arbitrary.

It's stereotyping, regardless of whether the stereotyped group perpetuates it or not.

Originally Posted by PaulTersigni

I agree 100% that ethnic groups are the dumbest thing on campus and i really don't think they should be allowed or receive funding. I think that if anything they incite racism.

Not exactly. I'm part of a cultural club and I can say we're pretty inclusive of other cultures joining. I've seen other cultures participating in our club activities and I don't think anyone objects to that. :| Just because one club projects a very exclusive vibe doesn't mean all cultural clubs are like that. :\

[quote]Originally Posted by huzaifa47
Odd, you are saying you can't figure that out by my last name?[quote]

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Huzaifa my man...isn't this statement racist?

o_0 *facepalm* "Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or get preferential treatment."

Howww is it "Racist" :S I was merely confused at how she was unable to "apparently" decipher my background from my name; Plus I only said the above statement because some of her comments seemed to imply directly that in some way I appear to be "Supporter of Apartheid Week"...And since I had officially not made any claims in that regards; It leads me to: Normally you would support such an event because of religious/cultural or political leanings.

Its basic cultural linguistics/general Knowledge to be able to decipher someones background to a "decent" degree of accuracy. Plus even if it isn't general knowledge; As Bushra showed you can easily google up the history to a decent degree of accuracy. As a Socio kid I normally am willing to take my chances with those odds!

The word "Racism" is thrown around wayyy too much these days :S

p.s: There is an incredibly low chance that anyone not a Muslim would name their kid/change their name to the "name" of the Prophet of Islam's two main names! Those two names are as Muslim as you get! Like lol Mowicz you HAVE to stop sometimes thinking cultural/real life stuff in mathematical terms! Some Hypothetical/LOW probability theories aren't applicable in some RL circumstances :S Though I know you will obviously disagree

It's easier to relate to a native-born Canadian that you're "Indian" or "Pakistani" rather than "Punjabi", and even easier to relate that you're 'brown' rather than either of those terms.
So, it's hardly more racist to call someone 'brown' or 'Indian', as both terms are pretty arbitrary.

It's stereotyping, regardless of whether the stereotyped group perpetuates it or not

I never said it was racist to call someone brown? I was kind of laughing at some of the excessive PC-talk that people stumble through.

Er, stereotyping would be something like "Asians are good at Math" or "Asians are short".

Saying that someone is Indian or Brown is not a stereotype.
Saying that someone is white is not a sterotype.
Saying that someone is yellow/Asian is not a stereotype.

As long as terms/labels aren't used in an offensive or derogatory manner, there really shouldn't be an issue.

Originally Posted by Jay

As long as terms/labels aren't used in an offensive or derogatory manner, there really shouldn't be an issue.

Stereotype: a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group

Anyway, I don't see why you're defending labels - do you say 'my yellow/brown/white/black friend' or just 'my friend'? What's the need to specify race - and if there is a need, what's the need to generalize? Segregation is an issue, regardless of whether its "offensive or derogatory" or not.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Stereotype: a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group

Anyway, I don't see why you're defending labels - do you say 'my yellow/brown/white/black friend' or just 'my friend'? What's the need to specify race - and if there is a need, what's the need to generalize? Segregation is an issue, regardless of whether its "offensive or derogatory" or not.

It's a description.

I remember when I was in class, I asked someone who their TA was. They kept on trying to be politically correct "Oh, he was the one that was wearing the blue plaid shirt, has a hat, etc." If they just said he had the Yellow/Asian TA, they would been much easier to identify and to the point.

"Is it a jealousy thing? I mean, in all honesty, a lot of non-whites are smart"

I think you are jealous that almost all developed countries are predominanantly white even though whites make up only ~10% of the world's population.

By the way I am not a racist, I have friends of all ethnicities here at MAC.

Maybe the threadstarterr is jealous that almost all developed countries are predomiannately white even though the world's white population is only ~10%

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

o_0 *facepalm* "Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or get preferential treatment."

I challenge this definition. Since you're insisting I'm trying to use mathematics here (which I don't really see a hint of in my post), then I can at least argue that terminology is not a well-defined construct. That means, if two people are looking at the same word, there is no guarantee that they'll agree on the definition.


"The word "Racism" is thrown around wayyy too much these days :S"

Translation: "Everyone's wrong but me!"

If one person insists racism means what you say, and then a hundred thousand people 'get it wrong' and use racism more loosely, who's right?

Maybe you should get with the times...Perhaps 50 years ago, the word 'gay' meant happy...but now...:p

Things change...language is dynamic, and you can't always jump back to dictionary definitions. It all comes down to the standard norm.

So before I proceed, when I say the word racism, I'm refering to anything which characterizes a human being solely based on race.

Specifically, the notion that someone from the middle east must be muslim, or obviously has a name like ______, is a racist remark...and indirectly, that's the remark you've made.

Its basic cultural linguistics/general Knowledge to be able to decipher someones background to a "decent" degree of accuracy.

Case in point:

Tommy Lee: http://rockandrollreport.com /wp-co...0/tommylee.jpg

Bobby Lee: http://www.asianweek.com/wp-content/.../bobby_lee.png (I tried to find one where he wasn't making such a stupid face but failed. xD It's kind of his thing)

Stan Lee: http://captainotter.today.co m/file...n_lee_1973.jpg

Bruce Lee: http://www.myclassiclyrics.c om/art...iography.j pg


So now if I run across someone named "Kyle Lee" what background will they have?


It's not even a 'small probability' that you'll get it wrong (which I made no such reference to in my post, mind you).

p.s: There is an incredibly low chance that anyone not a Muslim would name their kid/change their name to the "name" of the Prophet of Islam's two main names! Those two names are as Muslim as you get! Like lol Mowicz you HAVE to stop sometimes thinking cultural/real life stuff in mathematical terms! Some Hypothetical/LOW probability theories aren't applicable in some RL circumstances :S Though I know you will obviously disagree

Given that I know a guy named Hamid Muhammed (Christian) and a guy named Muhammed Park (Buddhist...and not asian as you might incorrectly guess by your reasoning, given the name "Park"), I don't think this has anything to do with small probabilities.

If anything...it has to do with the law of large numbers...but you didn't hear that from me. :p

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Anyway, I don't see why you're defending labels - do you say 'my yellow/brown/white/black friend' or just 'my friend'? What's the need to specify race - and if there is a need, what's the need to generalize? Segregation is an issue, regardless of whether its "offensive or derogatory" or not.

By this logic, I can't ever use any descriptive words...because even if it's not 'offensive or derogatory' it segregates people into tall, short, young, old, blonde, brown haired, blue eyed, etc. How could you ever describe anyone, to anyone else?

---------

Why is race all of a sudden an exception? If used as a descriptor...I mean, is an asian not asian? Is a black not black? Sure they are...no one would deny it.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I challenge this definition. Since you're insisting I'm trying to use mathematics here (which I don't really see a hint of in my post), then I can at least argue that terminology is not a well-defined construct. That means, if two people are looking at the same word, there is no guarantee that they'll agree on the definition.


"The word "Racism" is thrown around wayyy too much these days :S"

Translation: "Everyone's wrong but me!"

I think what you were trying to say is that the word Racism is arbitrary(SocSci's use that word instead of Well Defined Construct ) right? I have no idea how the "Everyone's wrong but me" statement got into it. If that is the starting principle then I think this argument is bunk?

If one person insists racism means what you say, and then a hundred thousand people 'get it wrong' and use racism more loosely, who's right?

Maybe you should get with the times...Perhaps 50 years ago, the word 'gay' meant happy...but now...:p

Things change...language is dynamic, and you can't always jump back to dictionary definitions. It all comes down to the standard norm.

So before I proceed, when I say the word racism, I'm referring to anything which characterizes a human being solely based on race.

Well with controversial stuff that has a certain level of ambiguity in popular society I would prefer to go back to the norms :S But that's just me; because if we don't do that just about everything can/will be considered racist!

Specifically, the notion that someone from the middle east must be muslim, or obviously has a name like ______, is a racist remark...and indirectly, that's the remark you've made.



Case in point:

Tommy Lee: http://rockandrollreport.com /wp-co...0/tommylee.jpg

Bobby Lee: http://www.asianweek.com/wp-content/.../bobby_lee.png (I tried to find one where he wasn't making such a stupid face but failed. xD It's kind of his thing)

Stan Lee: http://captainotter.today.co m/file...n_lee_1973.jpg

Bruce Lee: http://www.myclassiclyrics.c om/art...iography.j pg


So now if I run across someone named "Kyle Lee" what background will they have?

Two of them are "Asian". Of the two "Caucasian" examples One is actually called Lieber the other's last name is Bass! Plus I'll use more then just a name on a paper to make my guess! There are other behavioral/cultural patterns

Given that I know a guy named Hamid Muhammed (Christian) and a guy named Muhammed Park (Buddhist...and not asian as you might incorrectly guess by your reasoning, given the name "Park"), I don't think this has anything to do with small probabilities.

If anything...it has to do with the law of large numbers...but you didn't hear that from me. :p

Realistically how many of the above examples(even if they are true) do you think there are of Non-Muslims being named Muhammad? I'm not sure law of large numbers is valid; since I've met/heard/read about 1000+ Muslim Muhammed's and No Non-Muslim ones.