Originally Posted by RyanC

The reason why suicidal thoughts are offensive to people is because that it's hard to see somebody believe stuff about themselves that isn't true. The fact of the matter, while people have the right to live how they want to, most shuffle the thoughts away and don't talk about it. It's never acceptable to let somebody believe they're less than, because they're not..

I don't really see what you are saying.
To me it seems like a simple question, are you not entitled to agency over your own body?

If someone is against someone killing themselves, then great!
They are free to help in whichever means they want to.
But why should their opinion about the value of human life forbid others from choosing when and how to terminate their existence?

How does our society hold the beliefs that:
A) The ending of another's life, abortion, is acceptable
and
B) The ending of your own life, suicide, is unacceptable

Originally Posted by WillyH

I don't really see what you are saying.
To me it seems like a simple question, are you not entitled to agency over your own body?

If someone is against someone killing themselves, then great!
They are free to help in whichever means they want to.
But why should their opinion about the value of human life forbid others from choosing when and how to terminate their existence?

How does our society hold the beliefs that:
A) The ending of another's life, abortion, is acceptable
and
B) The ending of your own life, suicide, is unacceptable

Sometimes when people are going through a certain phase/difficult time in their life, they don't see things clearly, and only focus on the bad things going on their lives, and thus feel the need to take their own life.
Some people (such as myself) feel the need to show these people that if they just hang on a little bit longer, things will eventually get better. That in 5,10, or 20 years, the things that matter now won't seem significant at all, and that things have a way of working themselves out.
When people are depressed and in a certain state of mind, they don't see things the way we do, so it's up to us to remind them of the good things life has to offer and possibly (hopefully) save their life.

Originally Posted by zxcv89

I am 24 years old and I have just started my second undergrad degree here at McMaster.
I've always been suffering from severe social phobia, but things were getting much better as I started making good friends.

Then ever since I moved to Hamilton to do my second degree, I started feeling so lonely.
I'm all alone here and I'm also much older than the most of the classmates (most of my classes are 1st year courses too).
I feel I'm all by myself, and pretty much everyday, I would come back home without speaking a word to anyone.

I'm actually doing great in school, but the fact that I'm always alone makes me feel like I'm completely worthless and not worth living at all.
I've never been so depressed before, but unfortunately, I can't even discuss this with my parents because they'll be extremely worried about me when they hear about this.
I also happen to be very emotional so thinking about this makes me even more depressed.

Has anyone experienced anything similar..? I really don't know how to cope with this situation

Hey. I know what it's like, I know how hopeless it feels, and one thing you need to understand above all is some of the thoughts you have a not normal. I don't know how close you are to being suicidal, but a lot of people who are don't realize that it's not normal to regularly wish no one loved you so you could just somehow not exist, or to always completely dread getting up to face the day. Sometimes it takes a lot to realize that, and it's something that you need to constantly remind yourself of.

Please please see a counselor/psychologist. Mohawk and McMaster both have them available on the Mac Campus, at no charge to you. If you want to reach out to friends, that's great, but it's really important to regularly see someone who understands your condition and knows what you need to get through it. If you see them a few times and feel they aren't helping, you can never go back and they won't bother you. There are non consequences to going and I know it's hard to make yourself go because then you have to face everything head-on, but it will most likely make a huge difference for you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing a professional for your mental health, just as there's nothing wrong with seeing one for your physical health.

On a side note, talking to someone who won't just give you useless shit like "Oh you'll get through it no big deal" or "You just need to snap out of it" or "You just need to look at the bright side of things" is extremely relieving, in a way.

Lastly, if you do want to talk to people you know about it and have difficulty explaining your feelings, this might help. It's a silly webcomic that talks about the author's depression, but I found it put some things into words that I couldn't, and validated my feelings of frustration with some typical responses to people's mental illness.

If you need anything else or want someone to talk to, please message me.

Originally Posted by SweetyTweety

Sometimes when people are going through a certain phase/difficult time in their life, they don't see things clearly, and only focus on the bad things going on their lives, and thus feel the need to take their own life.
Some people (such as myself) feel the need to show these people that if they just hang on a little bit longer, things will eventually get better. That in 5,10, or 20 years, the things that matter now won't seem significant at all, and that things have a way of working themselves out.
When people are depressed and in a certain state of mind, they don't see things the way we do, so it's up to us to remind them of the good things life has to offer and possibly (hopefully) save their life.

That's all well and good and it's great that you think that, but I don't really see what it has to do with one's rights to choose what happens to their own body.
You could say the same about abortions, that people just need to have the baby, wait 20 years and see how much happier they would be that they had it.
But we don't live in a moralist society society that dictates how people should live their lives anymore, Canada has some of the most lenient abortion laws in the world, but just 40 years ago you would be a criminal for simply taking your own life, and even today assisted suicide is outlawed.

These two ideas, that you have agency over your own body and that no one could choose how to terminate their life are completely incompatible.
Again, if you feel that someone shouldn't kill themselves, then great go help them.
But your views about the sanctity of human life shouldn't prevent someone exercising their rights.

Imagine today if we banned all abortions.
There would be no more legitimate abortion clinics.
Would people stop having abortions? Probably not, but now they would be forced to use dangerous and uncertain procedures or go to the black market and hope it works out.
If we are beyond the days of women having to rake out their potential children via coathangers, then shouldn't we also be beyond having people splatter themselves on the subway?

I think the point SweetyTweety is making here is that there is a difference in how these two decisions are made. An abortion (moral or not), is something that is made by one or two people, after serious calculated thought. Yes, there is emotion involved, but is different than the emotional situation someone is in when they are considering taking their own life. Suicide, on the other hand, occurs differently. When someone is considering suicide, that are often in an emotionally devastated state, where they are likely to make a short-term decision. They are under such high emotional strain that they are not always in the right state of mind to make the decision that they should (even the one that they probably would look back on and regret even thinking about later). The law set it place is to discourage these types of situations from escalating into something bigger, simply because this particular person was going through a very difficult situation in which in may be difficult to support themselves through.

Originally Posted by Commie42

I think the point SweetyTweety is making here is that there is a difference in how these two decisions are made. An abortion (moral or not), is something that is made by one or two people, after serious calculated thought. Yes, there is emotion involved, but is different than the emotional situation someone is in when they are considering taking their own life. Suicide, on the other hand, occurs differently. When someone is considering suicide, that are often in an emotionally devastated state, where they are likely to make a short-term decision. They are under such high emotional strain that they are not always in the right state of mind to make the decision that they should (even the one that they probably would look back on and regret even thinking about later). The law set it place is to discourage these types of situations from escalating into something bigger, simply because this particular person was going through a very difficult situation in which in may be difficult to support themselves through.

You are making some very dubious assumptions:
>An abortion (moral or not), is something that is made by one or two people, after serious calculated thought
and
>Suicide, on the other hand, occurs differently. When someone is considering suicide, that are often in an emotionally devastated state, where they are likely to make a short-term decision.
You are assuming that all suicides occur in the heat of the moment while abortions are all carefully considered.

An abortion is something that is inherently time constrained, as most abortions can only be performed 12 weeks after pregnancy, so the most time you have to make your decision on whether you are having an abortion or not is 12 weeks.
However for suicide someone could have lingering thoughts and considerations regarding it for years, and only decide to do it once they feel that they have had enough.

Alright, but lets ignore that and say that you have been thinking your whole life about having an abortion as well, so the fact that it's usually only a concern when post pregnancy is dismissed.
Even then the argument that suicide can't be legalized due to less thought can't be made, as the majority of suicides occur not among teens or young adults but people between the ages of 30 to 60, where as abortions are predominantly are for women in their teens to late 20s.
So even then suicide would still be a more rational choice than an abortion (even when ignoring the fact that in one you take your own life, where as in the other you take the life of someone else).

But all that is irrelevant, as abortion is legal based on the context that it is your body, and that you have the final say on what occurs to and inside of it.
It's that simple, you don't get to dictate what happens to my body, period.

Originally Posted by WillyH

You are making some very dubious assumptions:
>An abortion (moral or not), is something that is made by one or two people, after serious calculated thought
and
>Suicide, on the other hand, occurs differently. When someone is considering suicide, that are often in an emotionally devastated state, where they are likely to make a short-term decision.
You are assuming that all suicides occur in the heat of the moment while abortions are all carefully considered.

An abortion is something that is inherently time constrained, as most abortions can only be performed 12 weeks after pregnancy, so the most time you have to make your decision on whether you are having an abortion or not is 12 weeks.
However for suicide someone could have lingering thoughts and considerations regarding it for years, and only decide to do it once they feel that they have had enough.

Alright, but lets ignore that and say that you have been thinking your whole life about having an abortion as well, so the fact that it's usually only a concern when post pregnancy is dismissed.
Even then the argument that suicide can't be legalized due to less thought can't be made, as the majority of suicides occur not among teens or young adults but people between the ages of 30 to 60, where as abortions are predominantly are for women in their teens to late 20s.
So even then suicide would still be a more rational choice than an abortion (even when ignoring the fact that in one you take your own life, where as in the other you take the life of someone else).

But all that is irrelevant, as abortion is legal based on the context that it is your body, and that you have the final say on what occurs to and inside of it.
It's that simple, you don't get to dictate what happens to my body, period.

I think we are getting off-topic from what this thread was intended for.

I'm just voicing what I'm sure many people in the OP's situation are thinking. I know many people and have first hand experience with the depression, anxiety, loneliness, social ostracism and etc.
So that is why I'm bringing it up, why should we continue living as social pariahs and misfits?

There are plenty of people who are set on suicide no matter what, and will take whatever measures are available to them to carry it out, so why not just give them humane and dignified ways of doing it?
How many people have had to jump in front of a train and live out their last moments full of anxiety and terror simply because of the selfishness of the general public?
But there are also those who will continue to live in a small personal hell because for some reason when a woman kills her unborn child she is pro choice, but when a man kills himself he is taking the coward's way out.

Originally Posted by WillyH

I'm just voicing what I'm sure many people in the OP's situation are thinking. I know many people and have first hand experience with the depression, anxiety, loneliness, social ostracism and etc.
So that is why I'm bringing it up, why should we continue living as social pariahs and misfits?

There are plenty of people who are set on suicide no matter what, and will take whatever measures are available to them to carry it out, so why not just give them humane and dignified ways of doing it?
How many people have had to jump in front of a train and live out their last moments full of anxiety and terror simply because of the selfishness of the general public?
But there are also those who will continue to live in a small personal hell because for some reason when a woman kills her unborn child she is pro choice, but when a man kills himself he is taking the coward's way out.

People who want to end their life can do so if they truly want to; it's not even remotely hard if you have the willpower to do so. We will, however, do everything in our power to make that not be a matter of being publically accepted, institutionalized, and legal. A human being is a culmination of experiences, stories, accomplishments, contributions, and future actions, so it's not right to believe that their personal hell will always be that way. An abortion is the termination of life that has not yet had a chance to begin that journey, so it is not the same matter, and doesn't warrant a comparison.

Originally Posted by RyanC

People who want to end their life can do so if they truly want to; it's not even remotely hard if you have the willpower to do so. We will, however, do everything in our power to make that not be a matter of being publically accepted, institutionalized, and legal. A human being is a culmination of experiences, stories, accomplishments, contributions, and future actions, so it's not right to believe that their personal hell will always be that way. An abortion is the termination of life that has not yet had a chance to begin that journey, so it is not the same matter, and doesn't warrant a comparison.

Why do you have authority over my body?
If we are to accept that we have agency regarding what we do to our own bodies, then it is impossible for you to deny one's right to seek assisted suicide.
If you accept that a woman has the right to dictate what happens to her body, and hence can terminate any life that might develop inside of it, you can not make also state that one doesn't have the right to end their own life.
You can't refute this, you have accepted the premise and hence you must accept the conclusion.


And regarding the assisted part, why should abortion clinics be legal then?
Banning them would reduce abortions, and hence there would be less mothers murdering their children.
If you are really set on having an abortion you could still get it, just take a deliberate tumble down the stairs or get the old faithful coathanger out.

OP asked for help, not a debate about euthanasia. If you guys want to debate this topic so badly, move it to PMs or make your own thread.

Yes, please keep on topic with what the OP is looking for advice on which is loneliness. Other discussions can be started in another thread if you would like to continue discussion on the other topic. Thanks all.

For anyone who has dealt with mental illness at a personal level, with themselves, close family, or friends, they know that when people get to a stage of mental illness where suicide is an option on the table, their perception of what is real and not real is drastically off. It's like looking through a lens that sees things in a completely different light, and so the decision won't be based on sound reasoning, not unless they go through severe remediation. To give them agency would be like giving an infant a knife to play with. That's just my opinion.

Regardless, the poster did not indicate that he/she was contemplating suicide, so to discuss such a controversial topic breeding other topics like abortion and euthanasia…and then we get completely sidetracked from addressing the problem the poster is having.

TO THE POSTER: sorry, I don't know your name. It's difficult making friends, and I can't imagine how much harder it must be if you have social phobia. I do suggest speaking to student wellness, they have personal counsellors available. Although, such therapy does not work for everyone, sometimes it makes it worse, so don't be discouraged. I volunteer for the student allies program, run by Carol Hartung, a personal counsellor at Mac. They match up students, usually people having trouble with mental illnesses with other students to help them deal with things like social phobia, depression, even loneliness and help them make academic connections and friends. we have social events several times in the year, and your student ally meets with you every week to help out or just talk. Carol is very nice and open female, and the program is completely confidential, you can also opt out if you like at any time. If this sounds like something you'd be interested in, shoot her an email: [email protected] and inquire about it!

really hope it works out, keep your chin up, things will turn out alright they always do.