Originally Posted by herBs

No, but. How much of an issue would it really cause though? I haven't seen anyone really protest about the supplementary fees, or going around asking people to sign various petitions to stop them, etc.

You are now putting words in my mouth. Never did i say that petitions would be started. You ask anyone if they are happy funding these various projects through their supplementary fees and i highly doubt you will receive a majority of people with concerns over the spending of their fees. Ive seen a few threads in the past here on MI with various complaints in regards to the supplementary fees. Are you saying that since you havent started a petition in regards to this, that you are happy funding all of these various projects that you dont have any affiliation with? If you are then you probably have too much money to spend.
If the band wants money, they should fund raise the money themselves. Same goes for EWB and Mac Solar Car, etc. There is no way that they should be able to take money out of the student body's pocket to fund their projects.

Originally Posted by herBs

No, but. How much of an issue would it really cause though? I haven't seen anyone really protest about the supplementary fees, or going around asking people to sign various petitions to stop them, etc.

I think that is partly because many people are not aware of the fact that they've been paying for all those supplementary stuff - I was definitely not aware of that.

And of course people wouldn't be protesting against it because basically "everyone" is paying for it without complaining.

IMHO, all those things you have listed (like marching band, etc.) are making positive influence on campus and they all contribute, in part, to making our school better. For these, ANY neutral person can eventually benefit from it at one point, although it might not be a huge benefit.
But I'm thinking religion is kind of a separate issue. It is a very sensitive topic and there's no way a 'neutral' (or non-believing) person would benefit from it at any point.

There are a lot of supplementary fees for services that a large portion of the student body do not require. Personally, I have no clue how to access the McMaster radio station, nor do I really wish to, and yet, I am paying for it.
I also don't see how these extra things positively influence the campus, as I am on it, and I am broke, and as a result, do not feel particularly positive, for which I can thank these fees.
I think that a prayer room would greatly benefit the major muslim presence seen on campus as well as those of us who are not muslims, because I personally do not like them praying where ever they can find a spot, and I don't think they are comfortable with that either. However, this should not be a major point on any candidate's platform, as there is an msa and it is there job to lobby for something like this, and raise the funds for it. Just as it should be other organizations' jobs to fundraise for things that are important to them alone, as opposed to forcing their bills on to the entire student body.
I am very disappointed to see the backlash she has received though, as I think had this candidate not been a muslim no one would have looked twice at "spirituality centre". And in no way has she suggested that it is exclusive to muslims alone, so your ignorant comments are quite eye-opening in regards to the tolerance level present at our school. It's actually very disheartening to see how people have been attacking this girl.

Just had to get that out, but for the record, I abstained! Why? Because I felt none of the candidates' platforms were particularly great. Things that are truly issues for students, such as these bogus additional fees and lack of study space were not efficiently addressed, if at all. As well, there is absolutely no love for us commuters out there who do not have the time or need for regular use of the hsr. Unfortunately, the commuters don't seem to have time or really care enough to run:(. Maybe next time!

Originally Posted by BenDover

I highly anticipate that there would be many frustrated students that their money was going towards a project that will only be available to a certain demographic of the student body.

Possibly, but probably not. It's already been pointed out in this thread but people don't usually care about their fees going up a buck or two, and pretty much everything the MSU funds excludes somebody in some way.

Originally Posted by BenDover

By saying that Muslims pay closer attention to their religious practices so they deserve a place on campus, you are directly insinuating that your religious beliefs deserve more attention than the rest.

First of all, they aren't my beliefs, I'm not a Muslim. Would I have to be to take up this cause?

Second, I never said Muslims "pay closer attention" to their practices, I said that their practices are different from the other religions represented on campus, and that Muslims who follow these practices require accomodation. In fact, even a moderate Muslim would require more accommodation than devout followers of many religions. This isn't my opinion about how swell Muslim folk are, it's just the basic facts of the matter.

Originally Posted by BenDover

Who do you think you are that you can put your needs above others? I'm sure that many students would say that McMaster's wifi inefficiencies are a far more immediate problem that needs attending to. I'm sure athletic teams would like more state of the art practice facilities and equipment. So who the fuck are you to say that your needs are the most important?

Again, they aren't my needs, I'm not a Muslim.
The wifi is proabably a bigger priority, and every team and club on campus does want all kinds of stuff, that's very true, but it's really not relevant to anything I was saying. I was arguing the merits of a Muslim-only prayer space against all-inclusive spritual space ideas, not against wifi upgrades.
As I stated above, as far as I can tell, Muslims are the only religious students who actually require an accommodation, as they believe they are required to pray a certain number of times throughout the day at specific intervals (see here http://www.islamicfinder.org /praye...y=canada&lang).
Every one else on the Spiritual Space bandwagon just wants a room where they can talk about their beliefs without being debated by an atheist; which they can already easily acheive through the MSU-funded clubs.

Originally Posted by BenDover

Did anyone ever say the Muslims shouldnt get what everyone else gets??? We are a collective student body. We all share the same campus. Therefore we all are given the same opportunities by McMaster. So dont go bullshiting that the muslim population is getting the short end of the stick here.

I think you misread this part of my post, I think you should re-read it. My point was that people like you bitch about a Muslim prayer space because "everybody should be treated the same". "If the Muslims get a prayer space, EVERYONE gets a prayer space! If someone is excluded, EVERYONE should be excluded! Otherwise it's bad because... the majority... or equality... or something!"

People seem to think that a Muslim prayer space is some kind of advantage or special treatment. That's like saying students who take the bus to campus get an advantage because the roads on campus are for busses only and everyone else is excluded.

Just because you give someone a hand doesn't mean you're giving them an unfair advantage, it just means you're an empathetic human being, or short of that, you're simply fulfilling a reasonable request.

So yes, accommodate those who require accomodation and everyone else can grow up and shut up. If I wasn't positive that you have 0 Muslim friends on campus, I would recommend that you shadow them for a day and see what it's actually like.

I'm an atheist and I really really love being an atheist, but I'm also really glad that during my time at Mac I reached out and made friends with a number of religious people (and in turn those people are now glad they made friends with an atheist). The atheists on this thread (and the internet at large) really need to get out of their bubble.

Originally Posted by cudizOne

There are a lot of supplementary fees for services that a large portion of the student body do not require. Personally, I have no clue how to access the McMaster radio station, nor do I really wish to, and yet, I am paying for it.
I also don't see how these extra things positively influence the campus, as I am on it, and I am broke, and as a result, do not feel particularly positive, for which I can thank these fees.
I think that a prayer room would greatly benefit the major muslim presence seen on campus as well as those of us who are not muslims, because I personally do not like them praying where ever they can find a spot, and I don't think they are comfortable with that either. However, this should not be a major point on any candidate's platform, as there is an msa and it is there job to lobby for something like this, and raise the funds for it. Just as it should be other organizations' jobs to fundraise for things that are important to them alone, as opposed to forcing their bills on to the entire student body.
I am very disappointed to see the backlash she has received though, as I think had this candidate not been a muslim no one would have looked twice at "spirituality centre". And in no way has she suggested that it is exclusive to muslims alone, so your ignorant comments are quite eye-opening in regards to the tolerance level present at our school. It's actually very disheartening to see how people have been attacking this girl.

Just had to get that out, but for the record, I abstained! Why? Because I felt none of the candidates' platforms were particularly great. Things that are truly issues for students, such as these bogus additional fees and lack of study space were not efficiently addressed, if at all. As well, there is absolutely no love for us commuters out there who do not have the time or need for regular use of the hsr. Unfortunately, the commuters don't seem to have time or really care enough to run:(. Maybe next time!

I cant speak for the everyone in this thread, but none of my comments have been directed at the candidate/OP of this thread. My comments have been general to if the MSU were to go ahead with this project. I dont think there have been any personal attacks made against the OP so i dont know where you got that one from.

Originally Posted by samd

Possibly, but probably not. It's already been pointed out in this thread but people don't usually care about their fees going up a buck or two, and pretty much everything the MSU funds excludes somebody in some way.



First of all, they aren't my beliefs, I'm not a Muslim. Would I have to be to take up this cause?

Second, I never said Muslims "pay closer attention" to their practices, I said that their practices are different from the other religions represented on campus, and that Muslims who follow these practices require accomodation. In fact, even a moderate Muslim would require more accommodation than devout followers of many religions. This isn't my opinion about how swell Muslim folk are, it's just the basic facts of the matter.



Again, they aren't my needs, I'm not a Muslim.
The wifi is proabably a bigger priority, and every team and club on campus does want all kinds of stuff, that's very true, but it's really not relevant to anything I was saying. I was arguing the merits of a Muslim-only prayer space against all-inclusive spritual space ideas, not against wifi upgrades.
As I stated above, as far as I can tell, Muslims are the only religious students who actually require an accommodation, as they believe they are required to pray a certain number of times throughout the day at specific intervals (see here http://www.islamicfinder.org /praye...y=canada&lang).
Every one else on the Spiritual Space bandwagon just wants a room where they can talk about their beliefs without being debated by an atheist; which they can already easily acheive through the MSU-funded clubs.



I think you misread this part of my post, I think you should re-read it. My point was that people like you bitch about a Muslim prayer space because "everybody should be treated the same". "If the Muslims get a prayer space, EVERYONE gets a prayer space! If someone is excluded, EVERYONE should be excluded! Otherwise it's bad because... the majority... or equality... or something!"

People seem to think that a Muslim prayer space is some kind of advantage or special treatment. That's like saying students who take the bus to campus get an advantage because the roads on campus are for busses only and everyone else is excluded.

Just because you give someone a hand doesn't mean you're giving them an unfair advantage, it just means you're an empathetic human being, or short of that, you're simply fulfilling a reasonable request.

So yes, accommodate those who require accomodation and everyone else can grow up and shut up. If I wasn't positive that you have 0 Muslim friends on campus, I would recommend that you shadow them for a day and see what it's actually like.

I'm an atheist and I really really love being an atheist, but I'm also really glad that during my time at Mac I reached out and made friends with a number of religious people (and in turn those people are now glad they made friends with an atheist). The atheists on this thread (and the internet at large) really need to get out of their bubble.

I can agree you have made some very valid points here. And upon reviewing my statement about athletic teams, that would exclude all non student athletes to some degree. So on that point i retract my statement.

I guess what my argument basically boils down to is that I dont believe a university, a place for academic education, should be funding, or supporting any form of religion. Sure there can be clubs and committees for different religions without a doubt, but when a university starts funding separate religions, i think that is crossing a boundary. If student clubs were to fundraise the money for a project or receive donations to fund such a project, then again, its not the university or student body having to put money into it so go ahead. I just dont think that academic education and religion should be mixing.
I can also admit i am an atheist, but i dont think that my comments are being made due to the fact that i am an atheist. My opinions on this matter stem from the fact that the university should be putting their student's fees towards ACADEMIC endeavors, not religious.