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American Politics: Health Care Debate

 
Old 08-04-2009 at 05:24 PM   #16
macsci
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It's not that the American system "does not work", it's that it's not accessible to everyone. That's really the driving force behind "universal healthcare". The rich will get their way regardless. Middle class will have to pay some more taxes, but I suppose it's for the good of everyone. Being immoral pays.
Old 08-04-2009 at 08:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan523 View Post
A perfect world is one without liberties. ^-^
A more convenient one at the very least.
Is that a quote or your own wit? I like it a lot, although I don't actually agree with it. Its very HL Mencken-esque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macsci View Post
It's not that the American system "does not work", it's that it's not accessible to everyone. That's really the driving force behind "universal healthcare". The rich will get their way regardless. Middle class will have to pay some more taxes, but I suppose it's for the good of everyone. Being immoral pays.
Sorry, I meant the American system of distribution of health care doesn't work, not their health care system. Most first world countries are roughly the same in terms of the system itself, once you get access to it.
Old 08-04-2009 at 08:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Marlowe View Post
A more convenient one at the very least.
Is that a quote or your own wit? I like it a lot, although I don't actually agree with it. Its very HL Mencken-esque.
I heard it somewhere, it wasn't those exact words. It was similar though, but sounds a lot better than what I said.
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Old 08-22-2009 at 12:01 PM   #19
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Old 08-22-2009 at 12:39 PM   #20
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When services and products are payed for communally, the price is lower then if they would have been provided privately. Remember, you get to vote on who controls the heath-care system here...you get a say.

Anyway, governments that provide all encompassing services for their citizens frequently rank in the top 10 of United Nations' quality of life, life expectancy and human development lists.

Just check out pages 19 and 20 of this University of Colorado study on Sweden where a Volvo executive comes to the defense of the welfare state - http://stripe.colorado.edu/~steinmo/bucking.pdf

Social Democracy, like Capitalism has its problems, but at least Social Democracy strives to make everyone's lives better, healthier and more safe.

I would rather have a more compassionate world then richer world.
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Old 08-22-2009 at 12:54 PM   #21
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Out of curiosity, have any of you seen the Michael Moore film Sicko? And how many people in the American population do you think have seen it?

You'd think that Michael Moore would be in the press in the states more advocating for universal health reform based on what he illustrated in his movie alone.
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Old 08-22-2009 at 12:59 PM   #22
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I've seen it. I think it's important to take most Michael Moore films with a grain of salt.

Most conservative Americans probably wouldn't bother watching it, imo.
Old 08-22-2009 at 01:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus View Post
I've seen it. I think it's important to take most Michael Moore films with a grain of salt.

Most conservative Americans probably wouldn't bother watching it, imo.
Agreed. All documentaries carry a specific bias, and Moore's have a definite and strong bias. My point being it shows how other countries with universal health care (Canada and France are sticking out in my brain) have it a lot better than the US.

I guess it's not really entering any discussion because all for-profit media is essentially state run. And thus only the rich in America are benefiting from the current system and don't really want to change that.
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Old 08-22-2009 at 01:53 PM   #24
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I think Michael Moore entering the health care debate would do absolutely no good. He is a very polarizing figure and would make an easy target. Not only that, he'd make an already poor level of discourse even worse (Public Health= Nazism? seriously?).

What's most frustrating for me watching what's going on down there is the amplification of poor interpretation of science, the right numbers not being shown, and the absolute shit that conservative pundits (Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck and co.) are getting away with.

Americans spend the most for the worst health outcomes among richer nations. The best health care in the world? Give me a break.
Old 08-23-2009 at 11:20 AM   #25
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Has anyone else seen these posters: http://www.roc-usa.net/photos/HITLER%20POSTER%203.p ng ?
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Old 08-23-2009 at 12:38 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorend View Post
Has anyone else seen these posters: http://www.roc-usa.net/photos/HITLER%20POSTER%203.p ng ?
Absolutely ridiculous. I'll never ever live there....
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Old 08-23-2009 at 12:54 PM   #27
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I have to say that a lot of Americans do have a point in protesting government involvement in health care because they themselves have good plans which they can afford or is being provided to them through their employer. And the fact that taxes are most likely to rise even slightly for government involvement. That said, I don't think the Obama administration is aiming for complete universal health care anyways. A good idea for the American system is to have government help for those that cannot afford it (at a cheaper cost, because we all know private ownership has raised the costs for profits) through government run insurance plans and leaving those with adequate insurance to themselves.

However, we all know that cheaper insurance for those that can't afford it means premiums for those that can afford it will probably go down. Of course those huge insurance companies are aware of that and they are probably the main opposition to all of this. I'm sure they have had a hand in rallying conservative clients with some propaganda.
Old 08-23-2009 at 12:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorend View Post
Has anyone else seen these posters: http://www.roc-usa.net/photos/HITLER%20POSTER%203.p ng ?
Ya that's just stupid. Ignorance is blinding "my friends."

(the quote refer to John McCain, anyone remember how he kept using those words haha)
Old 08-23-2009 at 03:57 PM   #29
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I find it extremely frustrating how the opponents of universal healthcare do not even debate Obama's legislation intelligently in the States -- they just keep saying "death panels" and "it'll kill my grandmother" and "oh no, socialism!". If you're going to actually debate the issue at hand, stop using scare tactics! Communicate an intellectually-sound opinion!

And the media in the States isn't helping either, especially Fox News (example: calling the grassroots Internet movement of the Obama administration "akin to the Hitler Youth movement started by the Nazis") It's sickening, really; arguably one of the most important pieces of American domestic legislation may be shut down by idiotic demagogues. Like others have already said, the prospect of ever living in the States grows darker every day I see an Obama poster with Hitler's face transposed on it.

Let's just hope Canadian politics never devolves to that level, where the most influential voice in politics is that of the right-wing sensationalist media.
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Old 08-23-2009 at 06:36 PM   #30
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHsUi...eature=channel

This women yells "Heil Hitler" to a Jewish man defending universal health care in Israel. The attitude of these right wing wackjobs is sickening.



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