Originally Posted by micadjems

Who knows. The people in the MSU.

And I don't care to work for a corrupted government

The "people" in the MSU? Let's avoid "us and them". We're students just like you.

And I take offense to the allegations that we have a corrupted government. If the government were truly corrupted, we'd have swift meetings where decisions are made at the whim of the powers-that-be.

Instead, on behalf of students, 35 representatives sit around a table for hours on end debating what is best for students after consultations that they've done through committee and through conversations they've had with students in their Faculty. I know that SRA members like Ben Taunton, Matt Wright, and Joe Finkle are doing their job by frequently updating forum members on MacInsiders and asking for their opinion. Furthermore, SRA Committees often have non-SRA members as their most valuable members considering they aren't sucked into the trappings of the political machine. At meetings, the phrase, "I'm voting yay/nay on behalf of the students in my faculty because..." is often espoused, and isn't used lightly.

As I said in my editorial in the most recent edition of The Silhouette, if you're not happy with the SRA members representing you, then you can recall them and replace them with someone who will better represent you.

Democracy isn't a one way street. You need to help us out, too.

I am, I'm giving my opinion.

And I would like to point out that most engineers I talk to feel the same way as me regarding not only the 1280 issue, but the government as well.

Like... when the SRA hadn't approved that money yet, why didn't they just say, Hey, you screwed us, you don't get the money. Enjoy your half-finished bar.

This issue doesn't make it feel any better.

Originally Posted by micadjems

And I would like to point out that most engineers I talk to feel the same way as me about...the government as well.

Well then perhaps there are even more people who don't understand how the student government works than I originally thought.

"Political corruption is the use of legislated powers by government officials for illegitimate private gain. Types of corruption include bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, patronage, graft, and embezzlement."

Saying that the MSU is corrupt is a very strong allegation and is absolutely 100% false. Perhaps you're using the wrong word to express yourself, but the MSU and SRA are not corrupt by any stretch of the imagination. I challenge you to prove your claim, and until you do, then you shouldn't make allegations such as these lightly.

What about all the freebies that just about everyone in the student government got at 1/4s? Drink those student fees away...

Now I cant seem to find any quarters balance sheets, but I certainly would like to see them and how much money they "budgeted" to no cover and free drinks for student government people.

Not to mention...
(http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...ase-their-pay/)

"The MSU bar, Quarters, recorded a $425,000 lost in 2007/08. Overall, the MSU bar has lost nearly $900,000 dollars in the last six years."
"The wage of the McMaster Students Union president increase from $25,699 per year to $31,460 plus benefits and perks. The MSU president’s benefits worth are over $8,000 per year."
"Vice-presidents are seeing their salary increase from $25,688 per year to $31,460. The MSU also increased compensation for committee chairs from a $750 per year honourium to $2,340."

And here (http://thesil.ca/?p=2027) everyone just says, oh! It wasnt me! I didn't know about any of this!

(And I know this discussion should be about the logo, but you asked)

Originally Posted by micadjems

What about all the freebies that just about everyone in the student government got at 1/4s? Drink those student fees away...

Now I cant seem to find any quarters balance sheets, but I certainly would like to see them and how much money they "budgeted" to no cover and free drinks for student government people.

Not to mention...
(http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...ase-their-pay/)

"The MSU bar, Quarters, recorded a $425,000 lost in 2007/08. Overall, the MSU bar has lost nearly $900,000 dollars in the last six years."
"The wage of the McMaster Students Union president increase from $25,699 per year to $31,460 plus benefits and perks. The MSU president’s benefits worth are over $8,000 per year."
"Vice-presidents are seeing their salary increase from $25,688 per year to $31,460. The MSU also increased compensation for committee chairs from a $750 per year honourium to $2,340."

And here (http://thesil.ca/?p=2027) everyone just says, oh! It wasnt me! I didn't know about any of this!

(And I know this discussion should be about the logo, but you asked)

Back when Quarters existed, I was a student uninvolved with the MSU, just like most students. That said, I've never heard of student government members getting tons of free drinks and such. I know that if this happens at 1280, I won't be taking it lightly. This is a fair example of corruption but without proof, it's just a baseless allegation.

As for the BoD wages, I'm not entirely decided (as an individual) about how I feel about them... these people are working a full-time job which is supposed to be for the benefit of students. If you want someone to be accountable for their actions, one way is to pay them. Being paid more means you should be held more accountable. It could also be argued that someone working a full time job should be compensated accordingly. $30000/year is often an entry level base salary... so it's really not that much when you look at it from the real-world perspective. Regardless, this isn't corruption so it's a poor example to bring up here.

Anyways, as you said, this isn't the place for this type of discussion, so I'd like to see it end here. If you want to talk about it more, feel free to open a thread about it.

Originally Posted by Taunton

I've never heard of student government members getting tons of free drinks and such.

Everyone I have talked to about this issue has brought up this point. I can't believe you've never heard of it before!! Is this news to anyone else?


Would a mod be able to open this discussion into a new thread please?

Originally Posted by Taunton

As for the BoD wages, I'm not entirely decided (as an individual) about how I feel about them... these people are working a full-time job which is supposed to be for the benefit of students. If you want someone to be accountable for their actions, one way is to pay them. Being paid more means you should be held more accountable.

Also, was anyone accountable for the quarters loss? Who was fired?

Originally Posted by micadjems

Also, was anyone accountable for the quarters loss? Who was fired?

Not sure... although if it were up to me, it would be the management who got the boot (if anyone). The BoD isn't supposed to directly manage any of the services (which I've noted has been a point of contention with some people and this year's BoD).

Also we should note that it's not necessarily good business practice to fire management in the event of an annual loss. If we look at the private sector, sometimes firms will have an annual loss, and it's due to certain reasons outside of the management's control. I'm not saying this applies to the Quarters loss, but at the same time going for the management's throat isn't and shouldn't be the first step.

Originally Posted by micadjems

What about all the freebies that just about everyone in the student government got at 1/4s? Drink those student fees away...

Drink tickets were only given at the recognition nights that I know of.. which would be eggnog (christmas thankyou thing) and student rec night in March. Anything else that was given out probably wasn't sanctioned.

Originally Posted by micadjems

Now I cant seem to find any quarters balance sheets, but I certainly would like to see them and how much money they "budgeted" to no cover and free drinks for student government people.

These weren't just for SRA members but for all the students working and/or volunteering with the msu that are invited to these 'thank-you' events. Most "student government people" and many other volunteers don't get paid so these events are there as a thank you for their work. And, as I said, this isn't a regular thing.. not that I know of at least.

Originally Posted by micadjems

Not to mention...
(http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...ase-their-pay/)

"The MSU bar, Quarters, recorded a $425,000 lost in 2007/08. Overall, the MSU bar has lost nearly $900,000 dollars in the last six years."
"The wage of the McMaster Students Union president increase from $25,699 per year to $31,460 plus benefits and perks. The MSU president’s benefits worth are over $8,000 per year."
"Vice-presidents are seeing their salary increase from $25,688 per year to $31,460. The MSU also increased compensation for committee chairs from a $750 per year honourium to $2,340."

And here (http://thesil.ca/?p=2027) everyone just says, oh! It wasnt me! I didn't know about any of this!

My first interjection will be a questioning of the objectivity of both of those links. Read them again and question it yourself and you might see what I mean.

When the SRA voted on the wage increases, the losses incurred at Quarters were thought to be nearly 12x less. It wasn't until the audit came in around October that it became known about how bad it really was. Regardless, the wage increases were a separate decision and are kind of different from the whole quarters thing.. the decisions behind the motion for the committee chair/commissioner positions were made for multiple reasons. The one I remember most (this motion was made in April 2008) was because this restructing would keep the positions more accountable. Before, the positions were on honourariums. If positions were to quit halfway, organizing these payments was strange.. Putting them on a weekly payment thing kept it all more organized. Before 2008-2009, committees would hardly ever meet. There was a huge improvement after this change and increase in productivity. Also, when this motion was made, no one was actually holding these positions. This wasn't a case of anyone giving themselves a raise.

As for the wages for the BoD, that was also a decision that was made in summer 2008, well before the audit results. The BoD did not make this motion nor were they involved in its creation. These positions were not on a payscale that increased with cpi so that was one reason for the change.. the rest were from recommendations that were made from the finance committee..

Originally Posted by temara.brown

My first interjection will be a questioning of the objectivity of both of those links. Read them again and question it yourself and you might see what I mean.

I don't think numbers are objective, which was what I was getting at by using that link since I can't find any official numbers.

And you're probably right. The free drinks that were given were likely not in the budgets. I guess you would only see this in the alcohol purchases vs. alcohol sales.

And it wasn't only the msu/sra people getting the drinks! Don't forget all those sports guys (*cough* football team *cough*) and thirsty bouncers and staff that come on off nights! I know quite a few who went all the time, not because it was a good club, but because they got free drinks!!

I'm pretty sure that's how every bar works.

Originally Posted by michelle

I'm pretty sure that's how every bar works.

perhaps for a few preferred customers and such...

but quarters had far too many of these!!

Originally Posted by micadjems

I don't think numbers are objective, which was what I was getting at by using that link since I can't find any official numbers.

And you're probably right. The free drinks that were given were likely not in the budgets. I guess you would only see this in the alcohol purchases vs. alcohol sales.

The ones I was referring to would have been budgetted for.. but the freebies at quarters that were given out to whoever.. that shouldn't have been allowed as you said.

Originally Posted by micadjems

And it wasn't only the msu/sra people getting the drinks! Don't forget all those sports guys (*cough* football team *cough*) and thirsty bouncers and staff that come on off nights! I know quite a few who went all the time, not because it was a good club, but because they got free drinks!!

I can't account for that either..

I think there should be a change in the way that BoD are given raises.

For example: last summer, the SRA voted to increase the salary of BoD members. Who was on the SRA last year? The two Andrews & Chris Martin. Look who's on the BoD this year...

Obviously salary should increase with the cost of living expenses (although, they're given a spot in residence ...); however, there should be a delay in the implementation of the raise or a 3rd party with nothing to gain or lose should decide.

The SRA approves the entire MSU budget, way more than just wages..

If you are worried about the integrity of the individuals in the process, perhaps think about what casey said.