thanks andrew!

you might have misunderstood my post, I'm not asking for opt-in or opt-out for each msu service, just saying i disagree with opt-in in general.

but thanks anyway, that was a very informative post.

Originally Posted by stevennevets

thanks andrew!

you might have misunderstood my post, I'm not asking for opt-in or opt-out for each msu service, just saying i disagree with opt-in in general.

but thanks anyway, that was a very informative post.

Yeah, I read over your post and realized my error, I'm SO exhausted, hours spent working the referendum and a mid term, plus a paper outline due thursday morning at 9:30. Does anyone want my life right now? It's for sale

Originally Posted by KaesoPublius

Yeah, I read over your post and realized my error, I'm SO exhausted, hours spent working the referendum and a mid term, plus a paper outline due thursday morning at 9:30. Does anyone want my life right now? It's for sale

no problem. i like learning more about the msu, it's interesting and definitely helps with understanding issues like the current referendum.

Originally Posted by KaesoPublius

Yeah, I read over your post and realized my error, I'm SO exhausted, hours spent working the referendum and a mid term, plus a paper outline due thursday morning at 9:30. Does anyone want my life right now? It's for sale

We can trade. I have my own drama to deal with. You and I have been equally frazzled in the office, methinks.

My point is why should I pay for a Solar Car that I am not going to be using nor be contributing to...
Why should I pay Athletics and Recreation fees when I dont do anything remotely athletic on campus...And If I ever feel like I want to, I have to pay additional fees anyways.

Well I didnt know these services were 'imposed' on us due to the older students. I'd definately have dissed them during the Homecoming Game if I knew.

And I agree with what DannyV said. You should have the option of optiong into services you need rather than option out of them.

Do handicap students pay Ath&Rec fees too?
Do students who drive to campus need the HSR Pass?

NO!

Why doesn't anyone use their brains and please charge people accordingly. Like for example charge student athletes with the Ath&Rec fee.
Engineers for the Solar Car and so on...

If you wanna charge a Ath&Rec fee make PULSE free...

I pay so many dumb fees and I still have to pay 10c/ page when I want to print at the library.

Its so absurd. Quite a few of my friends at other universitites have atleast free printing at their libraries.

ALL of these fees you are reffering to were passed by students in previous referendum.

So think about it, if you vote yes to another fee, you're saying yes to forcing everyone to pay this even when some may not want to. You yourself say that you're frustrated with these extra fees and how you can't opt out. So, why on earth would you want to keep forcing these upon yourself and fellow students if you're that frustrated?

I'm not saying I personally agree entirely with that frame of logic and that all supplementary fees are a bad idea.

I think at least you and I can agree that at least those supplementary fees are more likely to actually help students in their academic career. This DVD thing does not in any way.

If this is going to be a debate about fees, I feel it necessary to stand up for Solar Car.

Solar Car's an important part of being a university recognized on a world scale. How sad would it be if McMaster didn't have a solar car project when Waterloo and Toronto do? When Calgary does? When a random college in the states has one? It's a reputation thing. It's really important for a school with a well-known engineering program to have a solar car, in my opinion. Secondly, it's pretty much free advertising for the university - we're driving around a weird looking thing with MCMASTER all over ourselves. We're attracting money to the university. As well, this is on a global scale - our next race is in Australia and teams from everywhere will be competing. It creates and strengthens inter-university relationships, which are quite useful and beneficial to all. It's also not our fault if you choose to not join the Solar Car team. It's open to everyone from any faculty. In fact, we love you more if you're not from engineering. It gives everyone a chance to learn some neat and useful skills. It's also an environmentally friendly car, meaning solar car projects around the world are maybe finding ways to create a car that does not run on fossil fuels, which we all know pollute the air and also are limited. Solar car projects have actually created some very innovative things that are now used for other applications on a grander scale.

Besides, it's a friggin' DOLLAR of your money. I'm sure you can spare one dollar to help build a car with the power of a toaster. Solar cars are not exactly cheap to build, after all.

I agree, which is why I voted yes to the solar car.

One Dollar for Solar Car,
Some Dollars for the Ath&Rec,
Some for the Buspass
Some for this and some for that....

In short these one two three some...dollars..run up to like 100s on fee.

My point is not about saving money on the Solar Car, Ath&Rec and all that stuff...
(Come on I'm international so I pay as much as some of you pay for two-three years anyways)

My point is why am I being charged when I don't want these services and am not planning to use them either?

Its like you're paying a mandatory tax for building roads in Africa...A place you'll probably never even go to in your life. And doesn't even affect or make a difference to you.


What's the point of this?

Why isn't there an opt-in/opt-out?

Why does a Majority decide what the minority should do?

Its something similar to imposing a religion on a person when they don't want it and didn’t even ask for it just cause the majority people voted in favor of it.


Or maybe something like the majority liking and voting in favour of an extra course towards degree requirement so everyone has to take it(I know that's not a student decision but w/e I'm just giving an example here)


And as for prestige. It definitely doesn't come by making solar cars. Just cause some dumb universities(Yes I called waterloo, Toronto and some college in the USA dumb) and college do it doesn't mean we have to. That is just like...OMG a Harvard undergrad wears a Burberry Jacket...Mcgill undergrad wears an Armani so atleast us at Mcmaster should ban entry to those who wear anything less than an Abercombie cause its about prestige. And the majority decided so. Now we add a 500$ fee for abercombie jackets with Mcmaster Crests on them.

If you still didn’t get the point...Prestige is earned when you do something unique.
Not when you do ape others and try to one up them.

We don't have the solar car just for the sake of having one. A team of scientists and engineers didn't just find out one day that U of T and Waterloo had solar cars and suddenly want one too. Solar power is an alternative energy source that is green and of interest to research intenstive institutions like McMaster.

Originally Posted by aj-maxx

One Dollar for Solar Car,
Some Dollars for the Ath&Rec,
Some for the Buspass
Some for this and some for that....

In short these one two three some...dollars..run up to like 100s on fee.

My point is not about saving money on the Solar Car, Ath&Rec and all that stuff...
(Come on I'm international so I pay as much as some of you pay for two-three years anyways)

My point is why am I being charged when I don't want these services and am not planning to use them either?

Its like you're paying a mandatory tax for building roads in Africa...A place you'll probably never even go to in your life. And doesn't even affect or make a difference to you.


What's the point of this?

Why isn't there an opt-in/opt-out?

Why does a Majority decide what the minority should do?

Its something similar to imposing a religion on a person when they don't want it and didn’t even ask for it just cause the majority people voted in favor of it.


Or maybe something like the majority liking and voting in favour of an extra course towards degree requirement so everyone has to take it(I know that's not a student decision but w/e I'm just giving an example here)


And as for prestige. It definitely doesn't come by making solar cars. Just cause some dumb universities(Yes I called waterloo, Toronto and some college in the USA dumb) and college do it doesn't mean we have to. That is just like...OMG a Harvard undergrad wears a Burberry Jacket...Mcgill undergrad wears an Armani so atleast us at Mcmaster should ban entry to those who wear anything less than an Abercombie cause its about prestige. And the majority decided so. Now we add a 500$ fee for abercombie jackets with Mcmaster Crests on them.

If you still didn’t get the point...Prestige is earned when you do something unique.
Not when you do ape others and try to one up them.

Your questions are valid. While I don't know the answer to them I do know that you should definitely vote this Wed & Thurs if you feel this way about about the fees.

Originally Posted by aj-maxx

...

As Nicole said, valid points. You may want to start a thread on its own to discuss these fees. That way the discussion doesn't get mixed up with the referendum tomorrow and thursday.

In response to aj-maxx:

"My point is why am I being charged when I don't want these services and am not planning to use them either?

Its like you're paying a mandatory tax for building roads in Africa...A place you'll probably never even go to in your life. And doesn't even affect or make a difference to you."

For the Solar Car Fee, it's not a matter of you using it. It's a matter of greater opportunities for McMaster University to participate on a worldwide scale. AJ, part of you being a student at McMaster is you having support for what McMaster has to offer and the kinds of great research that is being done at this institution. When you accepted your offer to study here, you also accepted to participate as much as you possibly could in McMaster affairs/events/experiences. This fee is ONE way for you to participate. As mentioned before, the solar car garners McMaster some spotlight, as it attracts possible donors to fund the SAME SCHOLARSHIPS that you may/may not receive. In that case, the benefits outweigh the costs.


"What's the point of this?

Why isn't there an opt-in/opt-out?"

I don't know what you mean by "this", but if you mean the referendum, the point of it is that it offers McMaster students to have their say in a very important issue that affects their life as students. That includes YOU. Without this referendum process, I would say that it would be a pretty undemocratic environment at Mac where the student government (ie. MSU/SRA) would make all the decisions regarding fees.

If you mean the "point" of student/supplementary fees, these fees serve to help McMaster students (both present and future students) improve the overall university experience. McMaster is not a distinguished and well-known university because its students are all about the academics. Though our academic process is world-renowned, we are also known for our ability to nurture and feed our many interests ASIDE from academia. McMaster provides an environment for self-development and offers experiences in a host of areas (ie. sports, research, charitable organizations, extra-curriculars, etc). These fees allow us to maximize our university experience to the best possible level. (A DVD service would not do this).

In terms of an opt-in/opt-out, I would imagine that this is always a criteria when deciding what fees can be charged to students. Unfortunately, this can't always be the case because logically, it would just be inefficient and would waste tons more MONEY to have these options available.


"Why does a Majority decide what the minority should do?

Its something similar to imposing a religion on a person when they don't want it and didn’t even ask for it just cause the majority people voted in favor of it."

This question is absolutely a valid one, but you are simply entering an entirely different realm of questions and discussion.

My answer to this question is that, through the process of "majority rules", we assume that those who cared enough about the issue to vote, will have been informed and thus voted with the interest of the entire university and the entire student body. It's sad to see that the voter turnout during elections/referendums (not only at McMaster but on a national/provincial/local level as well) are extremely low, but this process is one that is widely accepted and is the most efficient way to move our society along.

With that said, there will ALWAYS be a minority when it comes to any vote. Unanimous decisions are rare, and I do not imagine a "consensus" style of decision-making ever making waves. This is why we choose to accept a majority to have the most bearing when it comes to making decisions. We assume that since a majority of students have voted a certain way, a large portion of those who haven't voted will share the same views on the matter.

If we always tried to find a unanimous answer to any decision, decisions would NEVER be made. They would be left unresolved, and nothing would ever get done. I agree that the minority should always be consulted, but in the end, the respect must go to the side that garners the most support.

Just a note that 10% of the student body need to vote for it to work

polls close in 7 minutes.

let's see what happens...

Also, in response to previous referrrenda about student fees, read this article from the Sil: http://thesil.ca/?p=763