Originally Posted by deadpool

We are not comfortable with our peers determining the way this bar is run because we do not have any more faith in them than we do ourselves. We are STUDENTS and we will continue to be students for a long time.

we're not comfortable with determining how the approx. 50000 is going into fixing quarters, or how to direct the management of the bar? fine.

if we can't be confident in ourselves, i guess we'll all have to stop paying the msu our fees. millions of dollars being managed by students? that sounds like a bad idea. students managing quarters? terrible! all services must have an experienced professional managing them, right?

or maybe since we'll let any students run these operations, we can trust groups of them with professional guidance to help us out.

Well YES it would be amazing in theory, but the chances of it being well constructed/functional would be lesser then IF done by a professional engineering firm. It all comes down to that in the end: how much importance do you give to real world experience.

sitting here thinking about this.

none of us knows about the quality of what mac offers, or what mac offers.

the best decision to come out of this discussion would be for the SRA to look at outside consultants but also an inside mac group. i would hope a decision based on price, quality, and other important factors would be made.

all I want is for a potential option not to be discarded simply because it may be a bad choice. we need to actually look into these options.

Originally Posted by stevennevets

we're not comfortable with determining how the approx. 50000 is going into fixing quarters, or how to direct the management of the bar? fine.

if we can't be confident in ourselves, i guess we'll all have to stop paying the msu our fees. millions of dollars being managed by students? that sounds like a bad idea. students managing quarters? terrible! all services must have an experienced professional managing them, right?

or maybe since we'll let any students run these operations, we can trust groups of them with professional guidance to help us out.

Oh please. Way to completely miss the point of my argument.

We have Quarters. A bar/restaurant/pub which has lost a lot of money because of its business model. That business model needs to be changed up so that the day-to-day activities of the business can be run by people who have more experience.

If Commerce students want to go in and help, sure. But that should never be a replacement to getting an independent Hospitality expert in to give recommendations based on experience in the field.

deadpool

i agree we need someone who is goign to do a good job. why are you immediately dismissing these students?

and you also didn't respond to my argument, so as much as your "oh please" worked to convince me, it would still be nice for a more direct response.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Also Steven, I might be wrong but your argument regarding not choosing commerce students for a job is similar to saying hey lets get civil engineering students to build a campus building! Would you do that?

I want to point at that there are some very famous buildings out there that are a result of building competitions that STUDENTS won.

The way I see it, you're asking for ideas, not just a "let's do THIS!" You want a plan first, THEN you implement it if it's good... whether it's commerce students seeing what they can do to help Quarters out, or architecture/civil engineering students submitting designs for a building design competition. It's obviously not very smart to just pick people at random and do whatever they tell you to do - you need to look over the plan they give you and see if it's feasible, realistic and within your budget. But there's no reason that we shouldn't be trusting our own upper year students that are about to graduate and go out there anyway, if they're just submitting a plan for review. Sure, experience is a great thing, but once you're used to the way business goes, you're losing a bunch of innovation to "well that's how we always do it."

Of course, we could always just call in Restaurant Makeover or Gordon Ramsey to fix Quarters.

Good argument, but there is one problem here. Plan's won't achieve anything, nor does anyone have any problems regarding commerce students giving us plans. However those plans are as good as useless unless and until they are ratified and OUR money is risked on it; and then its a case of "lets wait and see what happens!". This is a commercial venture, you can never guarantee success no matter how good the plan looks on paper, hence the need for someone with a good success record in rebranding/turning around places like Quarters.

But like you just said, there's no way to see if a plan will work out no matter how good it looks. Just because someone has a good track record doesn't mean that their next project will be just as successful as their last one. Sure, it's more likely, but it's like driving. Just because you've never been in an accident for the past x years doesn't mean you won't get into one tomorrow.

It's really annoying how everyone wants experience before they'll hire you, but you can't GET that experience UNLESS they hire you.

If anything, you could hire one consultant to lead a group of commerce students in this venture. Everyone benefits from it!

Though I have absolutely no idea if that would actually work.

The MARS Apprentice Program is a great way for prospective employers to evaluate high potential students for employment while giving the student valuable experience and good insight for career opportunities. The MARS Apprentice Program gave Frito Lay Canada an opportunity to provide a special work term experience that included project work, consultations with managers and senior executives, as well as on the job work."
~ Michael PavanZone Sales Manager
Frito Lay Canada


"It was a pleasure to be involved in the MARS Apprentice Program. The quality of work and individuals involved was outstanding and the student's contributions and ideas were not only valuable, but also implemented. Excellent job by all participants!"
~ Christopher DeanExecutive Vice-President and General Manager of Business Operations
Hamilton Tiger-Cats Football Club


http://mars.mcmaster.ca/testimonials.html

Engineering Students build and race a Solar Car (which students pay for with student fees).

I can't see how Commerce Students shouldn't be trusted to try and help out a Student Run Bar that's already loosing half a million dollars.

Note: Commerce Students = 4th Year Commerce Students with a Marketing Professor helping them.
Student Run Bar = SRA made up of all faculties 2nd-4th year students, with a Full Time Quarters Manager - who was supposed to be a Hospitality Expert -, a Full Time MSU Manager - also an expert-, and a team of Full Time MSU Executives - some of whom are only part way through their degrees while none are from the Commerce Faculty.

Also Note: When Tommy (a Commerce Grad) was MSU President, Quarters was always packed on Thursdays & Saturdays.

Originally Posted by Iman

But like you just said, there's no way to see if a plan will work out no matter how good it looks. Just because someone has a good track record doesn't mean that their next project will be just as successful as their last one. Sure, it's more likely, but it's like driving. Just because you've never been in an accident for the past x years doesn't mean you won't get into one tomorrow.

It's really annoying how everyone wants experience before they'll hire you, but you can't GET that experience UNLESS they hire you.

If anything, you could hire one consultant to lead a group of commerce students in this venture. Everyone benefits from it!

Though I have absolutely no idea if that would actually work.

uhh I'm not sure how quantitative driving statistics can compare to a company with qualitative success record?

Plus as far as experience is concerned, you get it gradually; Under supervision and guidance in internships/jobs. You hardly get 100% autonomy in all experience oppurtunity for students, that's just the way it is!

Exactly my point Andrew, these students contributed positively to an already established and sort of succesful million dollar organizations, they were part of a project etc UNDER supervision of managers/execs. Quarters with its supposedly "bad" business model is a sinking ship! Its not the same thing, At Lays for eg: Say a student comes up with an idea which isn't considered good/effective by his supervisor, he provides him with suggestions, the student goes back and improves on it. Maybe chances are he doesn't and he doesn't end up with perfect marks for the internship(figurative ly) but nothing gets harmed! Its not the same thing, think about it Sir.
Plus its student money, not private capital. We cannot risk it the same way!

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Plus its student money, not private capital. We cannot risk it the same way!

Wait, so you can spend $30,000 on raises to MSU Execs and SRA Chairs, while having 2 full time Business Managers on the pay role (Quarters has a non-student full time Manager, the MSU Business Manager is also a full time non-student position), and even after all those people have contributed still run a half million dollar loss... and then you turn around and say you need to spend more money because you can't risk getting a free marketing report from soon-to-graduate Commerce Students from an Internationally Accredited Business School!?

lol

Sure it's somewhat quantitative vs. qualitative with my driving analogy, but it still makes sense. You are never guaranteed success, just like you're not guaranteed to not get into a driving accident. You are slightly less likely, but sometimes things just go wrong.

As for it not mattering when private capital not mattering as much as student money... it's still SOMEONE'S money, and I think that there's more risk with private capital because if you screw up, there's more on the line than just pissing off the small part of the student body that actually cares about Quarters and the MSU. You are MUCH more accountable for your actions with private money in a private business.

We should at least give the commerce students a chance. There's nothing to lose except the time to go over the plan and deciding if it's good or not. After all, who's to say that a consultant would revamp Quarters into a space that the MSU student body agrees with? At least the commerce kids are students here and have some opinion of what students (or they) want.

By the way, students only give solar car about $18,000 while our operating budget of around $200,000 comes mostly from sponsorships. We're also not entirely engineering students... there's a science kid somewhere in there, and we're ALWAYS looking for students from other faculties! But if companies trust us engineers (even first years like me!) to build a solar car to race across entire continents (we're aiming for Australia in October), I think the MSU can at least trust their own commerce students to make a plan for Quarters that won't suck ass.

It's kind of funny how misinformed people are, and how they can ask the source for information rather than rant on with misinformation. It seems to me as though the SRA and the MSU are very friendly and open for questions. From my understanding a request for proposals as outlined in Mr. Finlay's memo would not limit this to outside companies. Students could put in their own proposal for consideration. I would assume anyone making a decision on this would take all sorts of things into consideration such as cost, student opportunity, past record, proposed ideas and so on.

As well it is my understanding that Quarters used this 4th year class 3 years ago to do a project, and look where it has lead Quarters. They are also wanting to remodle Quarters, which correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe interior design is one of the courses for Commerce students. I was very worried at first that Commerce students werent given the chance, since it was a big part of last years Presidential Election to have more firms who come onto campus employ students, such as engineers with building companies and markerting students for marketing firms. But given the track record of these students with Quarters, and their lack of experience with the overall goal of the project, maybe it is just easier and a safer bet to see what professionals have to offer in the proposal, and go from there?

Also Alex, Tommy being President and Quarters not doing as poorly is not even close to a legitimate cause and effect!

In addition to Gilmour's comment... the last Quarters renovation was done by a student company.

In any case, my point (and what I believe everyone else siding with me also agrees with) is that while Commerce students are free to attempt to do what they want, it is not an option to bar outside firms in favour of a Marketing project.

The ramifications are long term and the atypical nature of Quarters means that the textbook needs to be thrown out the window and people with a history of work in the field should be dealing with the issue.