Originally Posted by Gilmour

As well it is my understanding that Quarters used this 4th year class 3 years ago to do a project, and look where it has lead Quarters.
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Also Alex, Tommy being President and Quarters not doing as poorly is not even close to a legitimate cause and effect!

dhohohohoho

Once Again Iman you are blurring the defintion of quantitative project(Which a solar car pretty much is, I know not directly! but solar car's are built at universities all over the world. I Quite clearly recall seeing a movie based on a true story of highschool kids building one :S) and the mutlifaceted/dimensional problems faced in revamping/reviving Quarters.
The simple fact being we don't know the causal effect of our actions, we do NOT know what our corrective actions will result in, unlike a solar car where you have a good idea what the technical shematics/details look like and If it starts/works: Success!

Quarters issue is more complicated and quantitative then that hence as Gilmour said the experts would be our best bet! The better odd's of their success are largely migitated by their experience/track record.

I hope that settles it? :/

wait... wasn't this over?

sigh. i thought once it was stated by multiple people (who argued for different sides) that all we want is for the SRA to make an informed, balanced decision on who to hire without immediately dismissing any of the options, the discussion would have finished?

ah, the good old internet. land of the never ending arguments...

If Quarters was already a commerce project, then I'm willing to retract my statements. I wasn't aware of that, which is why I'm pushing the issue. However, just because they want to remodel the interior doesn't mean THEY will be doing the designing - I'm pretty sure we all learned to delegate tasks to people who are qualified to do that task, which is exactly why we're having this discussion in the first place.

I'm also not saying that we should ONLY take on students. I was just saying that we should give them a chance to put out a plan. If it's better to trust a professional firm because of past experiences with students, then I say go with that just because Quarters is in such a deficit right now, but it also shouldn't rule out students improving it in the future.

Also, saying that solar car is a simple project is grossly underestimating the sheer difficulty of building such a vehicle. Yeah, a couple high school students can do it, but it requires a lot of work and a lot of dedication. Engineering is a lot more multifaceted than just designing something and then building it and assuming it will all work according to plan. Theoretically working != working in the real world. Sure, it might be easier to correct a solar car error, but you don't actually know if what you're doing will help, do nothing, or even make things work, and we're still spending time and money on this effort. We've even done some things perfectly and things still went terribly wrong and we ended up with a pile of now-useless materials worth a couple thousand dollars sitting on our floor. So it's not quite that black and white, just like the Quarters issue.

As well, yes, universities around the world have solar cars, but they also have campus bars/pubs/clubs. So I don't see the point of that comparison. We can't be the only university with one in financial trouble, either. The solar car comparison I was making was just that companies all over the world trust university students to build a solar car (and subsequently promote their company with ads on the car), so we should maybe trust our students to make a plan. Just like how corporations have building design competitions that students often win (I wish I knew some building names off the top of my head so I could give an example!). Experts in the field are great, yes, but students are the ones that are innovative and creative and still brimming with fresh ideas. That's just my opinion, though.

As per the renovations, the talks between Quarters and the SRA has been limited to allocating funds and focus on the actual physical rebranding. As to end the argument, I will make sure that the issue of design, implementation and construction be considered at the next SRA meeting.

Because this meeting is the transition from the old members to the newly elected, it will be a good chance to address the assistance of undergraduate student input versus industry experience. I will make sure this point is addressed, but everyone needs to understand that the rebranding phase is still in the planning process, and nothing can be accomplished until it is brought before the assembly. Thank you one and all for your valuable discussions.

As well it is my understanding that Quarters used this 4th year class 3 years ago to do a project, and look where it has lead Quarters. They are also wanting to remodle Quarters, which correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe interior design is one of the courses for Commerce students.

You may be correct in that Students from the business school may have done a report for Quarters however it is important to understand what that entails. A marketing report (typically done by 3rd or 4th year students) is a guide to making and implementing a business decision. This includes the current positioning of the company in question, strengths weaknesses, opportunities threats and trends in the marketplace as well as a detailed analysis of the companies current financial status. The report then goes on to address a business related problem. The report includes research data to validate the problem and then research is conducted, in accordance with the professors all of whom also run their own businesses or are in some way associated with a professional marketing firm, to find a goal and solution to the identified business problem. Let's keep in mind that a business problem, depending on the dialogue with the GM or whomever their contact is, can be as simply s diversifying inventory, and their contact could express that making profit was not a goal. Finally, the report would involve an implementation plan.

A few comments now regarding the implementation of the report. As with any marketing firm who submits a report, it is up to the company to follow through with implementation. A marketing plan, which is what they would get from the students, is a suggestion on what should be done from what is a professional marketing standpoint. Perhaps the students went through a marketing plan and quarters management for whatever reason decided not to implement to suggested plan. Or perhaps they did and the problem was solved however it was unrelated to their current problem.

Second, utilizing something such as the Mars Apprentice contest coordinated by the Degroote Marketing association could be a great tool. Some companies that submit cases to the contest to have a marketing analysis done are Jane Kelly Marketing, Frito-Lay, RBC Financials, Canadian Tire and more. In addition, the winners of the competition actually go onto work on internships for these companies in professional marketing departments.

Finally, although interior design is not part of a commerce grads portfolio, a commerce student may do a marketing plan that suggests, after thorough research, that a re-design would change the perception of quarters and thus increase business. At that point a design firm would be hired to go through with an implementation plan. However, what the beauty of a properly done marketing plan is it explores all the options.

I think it is important to do the due process before making such important and substantial financial decisions. perhaps the problem is not the design but instead the food, the way it is run etc. The problem here is that the amount of research done, that proves that the interior design is in fact the most immediate problem,is not evident which suggests that re-designing and re-naming quarters is just another band-aid solution. Mr. Wright should be commended for an attempt to instigate discussion which has brought up many great ideas however the collective ideas of a dozen or so people spread over 100 posts simply is not enough market research to validate such a substantial decision just yet.

I'd also like to add that any upper year Marketing project requires a great deal of primary research. This is often rather hard to do; for example, when my group worked for Audi we had to Data Mine thousands of their Customer Care Surveys to compile a large enough sample of primary research. We also went to a number of dealerships around Southern Ontario to talk to the customer facing sales people and dealership managers, as well as to observe customer behaviour.

By comparison, how hard would it be for full time students to survey their fellow undergrads and conduct market research at Quarters? It's a lot harder to covertly observe customers while they shop in an empty Audi dealership than it is to covertly observe the patrons of a student bar.

For the record.

There is currently a Commerce group working with the Quarters managers.

There is currently a Commerce group working with the Quarters managers.

Is there an actual commerce group doing an academic assignment of individuals from the commerce faculty? I know of a few who have offered to work with the management as consultants however it is not a marketing report.

If there is already a group involved, then I have to ask:

Is the MSU going to read the Commerce Student report before or after they spend thousands of dollars paying for an outside "expert" to give them virtually the same report?

I once again have to reiterate; the whole process of rebranding and remarketing quarters is still in the planning stages, and yet has to be fully approved by the SRA. Until it has been brought before the assembly, all considerations will be fully debated and discussed.

Although it is crucial for McMaster to offer and create student jobs, we have to take into account the deficit facing the MSU, which will not be released until year-end figures are calculated. There is nothing stopping commerce students from submitting marketing reports, and request for work proposals will be issued very shortly. Patience is something that should be embodied when approaching this issue, and once it gets to the stage of remarketing, all students (whether commerce or not) will have the opportunity to say their two cents.

I once again stress that I thank everyone for your valuable input and if you wish to attend an SRA meeting they are held every other sunday (the 15th being the next) commencing at 6:30PM. Let's try to address one issue at a time. I know that everyone wants to force things through, but protocol is paramount.

Originally Posted by Alex McColl

[...] while having 2 full time Business Managers on the pay role (Quarters has a non-student full time Manager, the MSU Business Manager is also a full time non-student position), [...]

Having a MSU Member hired as the MSU Business Manager (and thus having a new one every year) would be ridiculous.

Considering the amount of full and part-time employees the MSU employs having a new person be the business manager of such a large corporation yearly is absurd.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

Second, utilizing something such as the Mars Apprentice contest coordinated by the Degroote Marketing association could be a great tool. Some companies that submit cases to the contest to have a marketing analysis done are Jane Kelly Marketing, Frito-Lay, RBC Financials, Canadian Tire and more. In addition, the winners of the competition actually go onto work on internships for these companies in professional marketing departments.

Call me unsure, but doesn't Mars Apprentice occur almost exclusively in second term? The people I know who have been involved did everything in term two.

My point here is two-fold.

First, it's clear it's too late to utilize the Mars Apprentice contestants from this year.

Second, if the MSU is going to consider asking Mars Apprentice to be one of the participating businesses next year, won't it be too late? The MSU will not be able to get anything started for approximately ten months; which puts a lag on any improvements that can be done.

Call me unsure, but doesn't Mars Apprentice occur almost exclusively in second term? The people I know who have been involved did everything in term two.

Yes Mars Apprentice does run second term and the original point was that we knew Quarters was doing bad before the competition this year started so it was just an example of due process that could have been done.

Second, Mars apprentice is hosted by Professor Malik and the Degroote Marketing Association. The DMA is always putting on events and looking for projects. The contacts that the DMA has are priceless. Companies like Jan Kelly and Frito-Lay are always in contact with the DMA, submitting a proposal to them and having them administer it to a student group affiliated with them (such as the apprentice contestants) could work as well as receiving feedback from their sponsorship partners. The DMA could also hold a contest in such away that Degroote hosts Canada's next top ad exec.

The point is that Marketing is a large and very predominant area in the business school, finding the students to do an exceptional report would not be difficult.

Another question...

Did anyone from Commerce suggest this to anyone in the MSU; either via email or speaking to someone?

It seems as though there are implications that it's the MSU's fault for not contacting all of these groups/individuals within the Faculty of Business. Why is no one being proactive?

If you're outside of the Commerce bubble you don't know that these groups exist.

Furthermore, like many student groups their websites are not always updated often. I know last year I tried to contact the Marketing Association and no one returned my emails...I was emailing past presidents because there was no general account.

I don't disagree with you here. I think that the disconnect between the MSU and many faculties is embarassing. Specifically Engineering and Commerce. However, the cooperation should be there. A good example is I believe the MES has a commerce student as their finance executive (I am not 100% sure on this though). This kind of cooperation should exists between the MSU and faculties in the same way.

Second, I don't disagree that the commerce faculty has been less than active over the past however it is getting better. I personally have been examining the audited financial statements and members of the DCS have become regulars at SRA meetings.

My posts were clarification of the benefits that utilizing the commerce faculty, as that is the one I am familiar with, could provide. My point is simple in that the MSU makes decisions, and spends quite a bit of money making said decisions when due process could/should be done at the University level prior to contracting outside sources. The MSU seems to feel that the re-designing of Quarters is the solution however pouring money into a system that is broken may not do any good at all. Keep in mind, that the campus bar was switched over just 7 years ago and we already have problems, for a new concept, particularly a bar of this scale, to be outdated in less than a decade sets a trend for a similar change which will be upcoming. Thus, the route of the problem may not be the design or he facility itself. That is why I suggest due process and the heart of decision making is through marketing, and thus it may be worthwhile to explore the business school as an option to find the root of the problem as opposed to making a major financial committment based on speculation.

But this does not just boil down to consulting the business school. This winter we installed a $46,000 speaker system. I am not entirely sure on the logistics as I cannot seem to find the actual proposal on the MSU website, however I am curious whether or not the speaker system installation in Quarters could have been accomplished for a lower price by a group of electrical engineers. Or could the engineers design a way for Quarters to increase capacity during busy nights? With the amount of turnover that occurs within the MSU annually, we should be making sure that due process is done before we make decisions and that even though a term may only last one year, it doesn't mean decisions need to be rash.