Adam, I refer mainly to the sardonic nature of his comments. I would personally like to see less of sarcastic Matt and more of constructive Matt. He is a personal friend and I think that he needs to be a little less negative about this process considering that he has a personal responsibility to ensure that this rebranding is done and would not want his words to be taken by the SRA to be one of derision for the people of the MSU themselves. You know this as you also have faced some ire even though you criticise intending to bring about positive change.

The SRA is supposed to be critical of the Executive. That's the point of bicameralism. The fact that the SRA has become mute pawns of the Executive as a means of getting reelected and later rewarded with their own VP Peerage is one of the MSU's problems. Matt is doing his job well by providing the MSU with sober second thought regarding this issue, and he’s right on the money.

A rebranding initiative, when done by a government body, can simply descend into a new name argument. In fact, by opening the door to renaming, the MSU risks wasting much of their time on something devoid of substance rather than tackling the real issues Matt and his constituents want addressed.

The proper way to rebrand an establishment isn’t easy. That’s why it’s taught as a 4th year Marketing Course. It’s a shame that the MSU is budgeting money to hire outside consultants when it could get students involved (for free) by ‘hiring’ their marketing group.

It's funny you bring this point up Rohan. "constructive Matt" has a meeting this week with both ismael and leroy to discuss a game plan to deal with quarters scrutinization, and has also spoken to mike woodard regarding student relations. "sarcastic Matt" is speaking what some people are thinking, "constructive Matt" is busy at meetings. See you Thursday?

Originally Posted by Alex McColl

It’s a shame that the MSU is budgeting money to hire outside consultants when it could get students involved (for free) by ‘hiring’ their marketing group.

What would happen if the MSU did in fact get marketing students to do it for free, and they don't do a good job and it turns out just as bad? Wouldn't people start saying "Why didn't you hire professionals?" I think using students would be a great idea however having outside consultants who have past experiences would be better in my mind.

I like "construtive matt" better than "sarcastic matt". "Constructive Matt" is going to meetings to voice his opinion, but "sarcastic Matt" is making comments that can be taken offensive to some people. Matt just keep in mind that you are an elected representative and as much as you may be in the right by saying what others are thinking, you have to work with the same people you are criticizing. I'm just saying that if you keep making comments that MAY be taken offensive, people may not be that happy with you?? I hope that made sense bud, but good to see that you are having a meeting with Leroy and Ish

Originally Posted by Matt Wright

It's funny you bring this point up Rohan. "constructive Matt" has a meeting this week with both ismael and leroy to discuss a game plan to deal with quarters scrutinization, and has also spoken to mike woodard regarding student relations. "sarcastic Matt" is speaking what some people are thinking, "constructive Matt" is busy at meetings. See you Thursday?

Matt, I am aware of constructive Matt's meetings. Once again, I simply caution you on being overly sardonic for fear that your words will be taken as too derisive to be taken seriously.

As you have already mentioned to me, Ismael and LeRoy have been very courteous and helpful in relation to the issues you brought up to Wooder (If you remember, I was standing next to you as you talked to him) and I would not want you to walk into the meeting with too much of a closed mind.

At the same point in time, I know that you do enjoy being a douche and in the end you do make good decisions, so I will cease to go on about this.

Alex,
I personally have more faith in someone with a proven record of Hospitality Consultation than my peers in Commerce. I am aware of some who have tried to take Quarters on for a project but have been unable to schedule meetings due to the normal working hours of the GM coeinciding with their daily schedules.

Hachi Machi!

Sarcasm or any other form of cynicism can be constructive.

Matt is a bellwether for the students that elected him, Engineers.

I, for one am shocked, SHOCKED, that Engineers are represented by a sarcastic person who doesn't think Quarters is good, yet still works very, very hard.

/sarcasm -> constructiveness

Originally Posted by Phoenix

What would happen if the MSU did in fact get marketing students to do it for free, and they don't do a good job and it turns out just as bad? Wouldn't people start saying "Why didn't you hire professionals?" I think using students would be a great idea however having outside consultants who have past experiences would be better in my mind.

i think that falls under a kind of "we tried, it didn't work, but we didn't lose you anything, and we contributed to the mcmaster community"

start with a free option. i'm confident fourth years in commerce working under supervision from profs would be more than competent for this kind of job. if they aren't, nothing lost, and then you hire consultants.

then why waste time? not saying they would do a bad job but if it comes down to "oh well they tried, it was free"....theres no point to waste time, cut the middle man and go right to the point....we need outside consultants

Originally Posted by stevennevets

i think that falls under a kind of "we tried, it didn't work, but we didn't lose you anything, and we contributed to the mcmaster community"

start with a free option. i'm confident fourth years in commerce working under supervision from profs would be more than competent for this kind of job. if they aren't, nothing lost, and then you hire consultants.

Mr Steven the entire problem with taking the "risk" of applying 4th year students to this job is the cost. As the memorandum stated it'll cost anything from 75-90k. Which again is just an estimate, it could easily go over 100k**, you do realize that the students won't obviously be able to get the best market rates for the material/expenditure required to as a professional who does this on a daily basis and . Chances are what they do doesn't work out, we then hire professionals who spend even MORE money in first undoing what the students did and then doing their own stuff.
Analogy being who would you choose to represent you in a tax evasion case? A senior law student or an experienced law firm? Honest intentions are never always enough!

*Edit: We should also consider the fact that SHOULD the commerce students botch the job Quarters will lose even more money probably in the period between waiting for their changes to take effect and deciding its time to hire professionals.
**Edit: Even if we take out the consultancy fee's that we don't have to pay if we hire students.

I was wondering how long it would take to turn this thread into another 'Let's Bash Commerce Students'

Who do you think consulting firms hire? You're getting a choice between free 4th year Commerce Students with their Award Winning Prof guiding them vs. very expensive recent Commerce Grads with their well paid Boss guiding them.

Then again what real companies take 4th Year Commerce Students seriously?

Oh wait:

FritoLay
Jan Kelly Marketing
RBC
Canadian Tire
Rogers
RIM
Xerox
Fugifilm
ep!phany
Aerotek
Maple Leaf
Tek Systems

http://mars.mcmaster.ca/current_sponsors.html

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Mr Steven

thanks for the Mr., although i'm not sure you were saying it in respect... anyway.

you do realize that the students won't obviously be able to get the best market rates for the material/expenditure required to as a professional who does this on a daily basis and . Chances are what they do doesn't work out,

i guess my post wasn't clear on this. I DO believe that students will do a more than adequate job in this task. as Alex McColl said, many of the consultancy firms we hire would have employess doing the main work with about the same amount of experience as our students; plus we have very experienced profs who will help. basically we'll get as much as we need from that department.

on the other hand, the MSU does not want to spend too much money hiring a firm; we'll look for low cost, and probably make concessions in order to get cheaper service.

we then hire professionals who spend even MORE money in first undoing what the students did and then doing their own stuff.

you realize the students just put forward a proposal, right? thats what either group would do. hopefully the entire sra and student body would not blindly put in place changes before carefully checking them over; if we do and it fails, much of the blame falls on us for not recognizing that.

Analogy being who would you choose to represent you in a tax evasion case? A senior law student or an experienced law firm? Honest intentions are never always enough!

no, that's not true. analogy would be "who would you choose to represent you in a legal case? A team of upper-year law students from a prestigious school working under supervision from experienced law proffesors, many of whom used to be legal proffesionals, or an experienced law firm with many graduates of that same school?

oh right, and the first one is free. the other costs $100/hour. (just a guess, consultancy prices vary a lot)

edit: and really, how great does it look on mcmaster to see its' own student union unwilling to trust its students to this task? someone sees that mac has a full consulting service... and we immediately went to an outside group. that's an insult, also shows a good lack of trust, which could hurt the on-campus group.

Originally Posted by Alex McColl

FritoLay
Jan Kelly Marketing
RBC
Canadian Tire
Rogers
RIM
Xerox
Fugifilm
ep!phany
Aerotek
Maple Leaf
Tek Systems

When these companies move from sponsorships to letting said Commerce students redo their entire business model, I'll be sure to call you to apologise for any comments. Until then, I propose we do as they do and wait till these Commerce Students get real world experience in order to make the informed decisions about stuff.

This is not a "lets bash Commerce" thread. You talk about Commerce STUDENTS, the very nature of the word implies that you still have a lot to learn. If they were experts in their field, things would be very different.

This argument goes for anything. Just because you are studying the subject does not mean you are the authority on it. Similarly, just because your Marketing professor is a consultant for brand marketing for companies does not mean that they are the best choice to advise on decisions for a restaurant and a bar.

Stop going on and on about the marketing course and the professor. We are the students whose money is going into the renovation and is going into Quarters in the future. You have graduated; your money is not.

We are not comfortable with our peers determining the way this bar is run because we do not have any more faith in them than we do ourselves. We are STUDENTS and we will continue to be students for a long time. I want an expert in the field to come in and compare Quarters to other similar establishments to point out the things they have found through experience, and not through a textbook or case studies.

I see Andrew, but these are simply sponsorships/internship oppurtunities. I assume the commerce students are hired/interned by these companies temporarily for what? Handling a 100k venture? What looks more likely is that they work with and under more experienced marketing employees at these companies, gain experience and then depending on their performance probably stand a chance of getting hired by the same company if they are interested and/or gain expreience for some other job application. I'm pretty sure they woudn't be put in charge of one whole client from day 1.

This is probably just a myth I've heard alot but apparently whatever we learn in college is applied only upto 10-20% in the work world, the rest is all in work learning and sheer experience, even with the help of proffessors they woudn't be as adequate as a Mac graduate who has spent a minimum of a year at a firm.

And as far as my law school analogy was concerned, it is actually more complicated then it first looks. Tax law is a very complex and difficult practice where alot of loopholes/stipulations are learnt WHILE at work under people who have been doing this for 10-20 years(Partners), law students while they may be academically qualified will simply not know the "tricks of the trade".

Same for my point regarding the experts being old customers and knowing very well the market rates for a certain market compared to fresh commerece students, "we will give concessions/look for low costs" are honest intentions I have no doubt they will! BUT will they actualy get those concessions?

And Andrew this isn't a commerce bashing by any means, hence my usage of the word "probably/maybe" they might be able to do a good job! who knows? But its still one of those risks/choices that a number of companies/people face in life: Expensive experience vs Inexperienced endeavour. Could go either way!
Edit: But the only difference is this is the money of the student body you are talking about, not a private firm who can take such risks.

Also Steven, I might be wrong but your argument regarding not choosing commerce students for a job is similar to saying hey lets get civil engineering students to build a campus building! Would you do that?

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Also Steven, I might be wrong but your argument regarding not choosing commerce students for a job is similar to saying hey lets get civil engineering students to build a campus building! Would you do that?

no i wouldn't say let's just hire students to build a building. but why couldn't the engineering students, maybe 4th year civils, have had an opportunity to group and, submit designs for a new building and with the help of the engineering profs, have a completely engineering faculty designed new engineering bulding. wouldn't that be amazing.