Originally Posted by Afzal

and what about the other lines above this point in that post?

Can you specify what points you're referring to.

..... ......

yah of course dragooon if it happens in nature, it doesnt mean we should do it. But saying something that does happen in nature doesn't and therefore drawing the conclusion of the wrongness of homosexuality is...annoying.

Originally Posted by Afzal

hmmm...ok i take back my point. simple as that

and what about the other lines above this point in that post?

yes converted one person away from anti-homosexuality! +1

homosexuality is unnatural but religion is .....



Go on you tube and I guarantee you that you'll find some animal of the same sex getting it on. But you will not find a video of animals going to church and praying to their gods.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Can you specify what points you're referring to.

--> If you don't want to hear out the reasons there are then you don't have a reason to say that God doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by andrew22

[color=#555555][color=#555555]
yes converted one person away from anti-homosexuality! +1

I wouldn't call myself anti-gay (you did remember) but I do find it disturbing in real life because even though you might get satisfied...there's no result from it (i.e offspring)

Originally Posted by thedog123123

homosexuality is unnatural but religion is .....
Go on you tube and I guarantee you that you'll find some animal of the same sex getting it on. But you will not find a video of animals going to church and praying to their gods.

how do you know they don't have other ways of praying? :p ( see where open-mindedness leads to )


mind you i'm just questioning you guys because you took specific names of religions (i.e Islam)...otherwise I wouldn't care since it's a personal thing

Originally Posted by Afzal

--> If you don't want to hear out the reasons there are then you don't have a reason to say that God doesn't exist.


I wouldn't call myself anti-gay (you did remember) but I do find it disturbing in real life because even though you might get satisfied...there's no result from it (i.e offspring)

how do you know they don't have other ways of praying? :p ( see where open-mindedness leads to )


mind you i'm just questioning you guys because you took specific names of religions (i.e Islam)...otherwise I wouldn't care since it's a personal thing

um well, that was andrew who had posted those things that you replied to, not me. I just had to reply b/c you were mistaken in stating that homosexuality doesn't occur in nature. xD

Originally Posted by lawleypop

um well, that was andrew who had posted those things that you replied to, not me. I just had to reply b/c you were mistaken in stating that homosexuality doesn't occur in nature. xD

well you learn something new everyday...never looked up homosexuality on google ever

I think ORGANIZED RELIGION is unnatural... but I think spirituality is natural. Why? Because there are sections of your brain that have been shown to be stimulated by religious experience, so it is quite possible we are pre-wired (not necessarily by a creator, don't read between the lines lol) for this type of activity.

Now... how a logical person, who critically analyzes their university material, goes about seeking spirituality in the bible is beyond me. I mean c'mon, Jesus was asked to name the commandments and he came up with 6 (out of 10) and only 5 of them were from the original list. The silver lining to that anecdote though, is that he actually named off 6 moral values that human beings display IN ALL FAITHS AND CULTURES regardless of who they prey to. The point is that the old and new testament has been edited, translated, and rearranged so many times that it is now so loaded with inconsistencies and direct contradictions that I don't understand its value anymore. Another interesting example; in the old testament god wiped out all the Egyptian's livestock in one of the earlier plagues, but proceeded to further threaten the livestock with hail and the death of their firstborn... but they were already dead! Just food for thought.

As for the "homosexuality is unnatural" garbage... animals display homosexuality frequently AND the prototype of all sexuality research, the Kinsey report, showed that most people are not 100% straight anyways... so if god designed us to be heterosexuals, then why would he allow for so much variation? Oh, and lets not even get started on how many homosexual priests there are out there...

I am tolerant of religion, but I think it is unhealthy for society to make it a taboo to question religious dogma. Why? Firstly, because in most other parts of the world, religion is NOT a personal choice. We worry about civil rights abuses, but not about the religious zeal used to justify those actions. IF were are our brother's keeper and caring human beings, it is our duty to make sure these abuses to do not occur, which often put our humanistic beliefs in direct conflict with religion. I mean look at Isreal... they basically sit on the most dangerous piece of territory in the world but choose to defy peace talks and common sense by building on land that even moderate Jews think is absolutely nuts simply because the radical religious right think its their birthright. Secondly and most importantly, over the past 50 years, the United States has been largely governed by Christians who believe that we live in the end of times... how do you think that affects their international relations? How do you think it affects their reluctance to use nuclear weapons?!

^^^ 2nd para doesn't concern me

3rd para, yes i realized thanks to andrew and cheri

4th para, didn't understand how US being governed by Christians has anything to do with their international relations since US is a secular state

scientific evidences aside, there are some things which cause a person to believe in God because those things are conforming to the book that they believe in.

Hence, to disprove the existence of God, you'd have to disprove a lot in that Book and find a contradiction in it, a contradiction that cannot be interpreted as otherwise as double meanings might get lost in the translation or out of context text might be shown to meant otherwise

It's not just physical or scientific evidence that would be enough for you to disprove the existence of God to a believer

Originally Posted by Afzal

^^^ 2nd para doesn't concern me

3rd para, yes i realized thanks to andrew and cheri

4th para, didn't understand how US being governed by Christians has anything to do with their international relations since US is a secular state

Yet it says "in god we trust" on the money, witnesses swear on a bible (which is actually explicitly forbidden in the new testament, along with defending yourself in court), the pledge of allegiance places god above the nation state, lawmakers fight to keep the commandments displayed at courthouses, and Bush voters were convinced their President was a gift from god? One interesting thing I've researched is that many of the founding fathers were VERY secular and were considered athiests, but there has never been a president since who does not wear their religion on their sleeve to appease the religious right. Also, regardless of the president's personal beliefs, if a majority % of the population of the US of A believes were approaching Armageddon, is it not the presidents duty to act in accordance with their convictions?

As for international relations? I personally feel Obama is taking the country in the right direction especially with his articulate and friendly words directed to the middle east, but how do you think Reagan would have felt about dropping the bomb on the godless commies? Would that effect is restraint if a serious conflict developed? I'm not going to guide you through the logical route to see how religion can influence a man's decisions, because if you are religious I'm sure you know, so I don't understand why you don't see the effect it would have on a president.

Originally Posted by zombiejesus

Yet it says "in god we trust" on the money, witnesses swear on a bible (which is actually explicitly forbidden in the new testament, along with defending yourself in court), the pledge of allegiance places god above the nation state, lawmakers fight to keep the commandments displayed at courthouses, and Bush voters were convinced their President was a gift from god? One interesting thing I've researched is that many of the founding fathers were VERY secular and were considered athiests, but there has never been a president since who does not wear their religion on their sleeve to appease the religious right. Also, regardless of the president's personal beliefs, if a majority % of the population of the US of A believes were approaching Armageddon, is it not the presidents duty to act in accordance with their convictions?

As for international relations? I personally feel Obama is taking the country in the right direction especially with his articulate and friendly words directed to the middle east, but how do you think Reagan would have felt about dropping the bomb on the godless commies? Would that effect is restraint if a serious conflict developed? I'm not going to guide you through the logical route to see how religion can influence a man's decisions, because if you are religious I'm sure you know, so I don't understand why you don't see the effect it would have on a president.

That is an interesting point. Yes, I know how religion affects a person's decision. @"God we trust" on the money, so is a pyramid with an eye on the top (read: Freemasons controlling the economy)

Are we approaching Armageddon, nah...personally I think end of the world is a bit farther than 5 or 10 generations. But let's see what happens in 2012, bummer if nothing does...I want to see action

and by action I don't mean blasts/invasions, since a city in my country got hit with NINE consecutive blasts just 2 days ago

Originally Posted by zombiejesus

Now... how a logical person, who critically analyzes their university material, goes about seeking spirituality in the bible is beyond me. I mean c'mon, Jesus was asked to name the commandments and he came up with 6 (out of 10) and only 5 of them were from the original list.

He wasn't asked to name all ten commandments he was asked (basically) which ones were important. Probably his best summary he gave was "Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, with all thy mind and with all thy strength. This is the first and the great commandment, the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the laws and the prophets."

The reason why I like the new testament is because Jesus was a fan of summaries and parables.

Originally Posted by Afzal

--> If you don't want to hear out the reasons there are then you don't have a reason to say that God doesn't exist.

Again, can you please specify these reasons? I'd like to "hear you out".

Originally Posted by Afzal

I wouldn't call myself anti-gay (you did remember) but I do find it disturbing in real life because even though you might get satisfied...there's no result from it (i.e offspring)

So you find it disturbing because there's no result from it (i.e. offspring). Yet, I'm sure you would be okay with an infertile couple going at it? Sigh, people and their double-standards.

Originally Posted by TedMosby

Again, can you please specify these reasons? I'd like to "hear you out".



So you find it disturbing because there's no result from it (i.e. offspring). Yet, I'm sure you would be okay with an infertile couple going at it? Sigh, people and their double-standards.

will do afterwards

and an infertile couple...that isn't their choice

Originally Posted by Afzal

will do afterwards

and an infertile couple...that isn't their choice

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I think you believe gay people choose to be gay (besides those unique ones who just want to "experiment")?