Originally Posted by shanntz

This topic came up at Mills, while some dudes were eating on the ground.
Religion should not intertwine with a public institution, for obvious reasons.

sure, that's not happening here, the views of the chalkers doen't represent McMaster university's official position.

Originally Posted by shanntz

Rejection of religion doesn't mean lack of morals.

Very true, but no God means lack of any source higher than your own self for an objective set of morals.
"What about what works for society?" Well these aren't objective because they would differ from society to society, from epoch to epoch, and from person to person. Plus a utilitarian definition of law doesn't provide morals, unless you 'smuggle it in'.

Atheists are very moral people, quite often more than myself. But where do they get the morals from? It's quite alright for them to have subjective morals but they can't apply them to anyone else.

We can study and reference various ethical systems—and in this, I mean philosophical systems of ethics, religion, cultural standards, etc.—but in the end, we turn to our own conscience, our own experiences, observations, and feelings on the matter, to determine what is moral in real time.
Even ignoring the fact that all individual morality is more or less subjective, what makes an objective moral standard? If there is one, are we capable of recognizing it and distilling it down to one hard and fast code? By choosing to follow a certain religion (Christianity, for example), a person has chosen to ascribe to an objective moral standard. I don’t think that any religion qualifies as an objective moral standard—not least of all because usually what people decide constitutes their religion has more to do with their personal ideas about what is moral than it does with the religion itself.

In this case, “objective” is a tricky word. Is there a moral standard that exists independently from our culturally influenced perception of morality? Most of us, whether we admit it or not, believe that there is. Afterall, if there isn’t some sort of objective moral standard, be it secular or be it sacred, virtue and vice become meaningless. We might be able to declare our own actions right or wrong. We can also declare somebody else’s actions right or wrong. But we don’t have anything to draw on if we’re trying to persuade anybody else to our point of view. If we condemn injustice, our condemnation is only shared by the people who already feel the same way we do. Whether we believe in an objective morality or not, we act as if there is one. At least, we act as if there is some morality beyond ourselves that should also bind others.


I think I rambled there. My apologies.

How people can be in a higher education institution and still believe in something as silly as religion is beyond me.

Originally Posted by knox

How people can be in a higher education institution and still believe in something as silly as religion is beyond me.

How people can be in a higher education institution and still be so closed-minded and intolerant is extremely depressing to me.

I have a few reasons why I'd appreciate religion being kept as something that's more private.

A few days ago, my dad started telling me that he thought he went "all wrong" with me because I'm an atheist. It apparently didn't matter about who I was or anything, he thinks he still went wrong. wtf. super lame. If someone approached me telling me to 'know god personally,' I'd tell them to buggar off. If I want to hear about it, I'd come to you.

Not to mention the whole idea that humans are superior to animals. That one really irks me.

Oh oh!! And the propaganda! That's the worst!! The setting was welcome week 2008, it was move-in day, and Campus for Christ was out in their full gear without lanyards and helping with move-in. Sure it's great you want to help with move-in. But, you're handing out leaflets to people getting out of their cars on their first day of Uni. I'm sure a the name 'campus for christ' isn't the most comforting thing to see when you first arrive. I could only imagine what someone who is very uncertain about how this university experience will go would feel.

I appreciate having events on the topic of religion but it all depends on how they are run. I went to the Experience Ramadan event in 2008 and had a blast! I learned a lot about their beliefs and ate yummy food! The event was tastefully done and really focused on including everyone. No one told me I should convert to anything nor even gave me the impression that they wanted me to. There wasn't spam all over campus to promote it either. I heard of it through word of mouth.

Whether you're religious or not, people need to be more aware. The KGP thing was not well planned out. Although, it sparked discussion, it also provoked a lot of anger.

Maybe clubs exec should look into a review of their relevant policies on this matter?

Also, wtf is with Campus for Christ's mission statement:

"Campus for Christ exists to help change the world by turning lost students into Christ-centered labourers."

...seriously!?!

Originally Posted by temara.brown

I have a few reasons why I'd appreciate religion being kept as something that's more private.

A few days ago, my dad started telling me that he thought he went "all wrong" with me because I'm an atheist. It apparently didn't matter about who I was or anything, he thinks he still went wrong. wtf. super lame. If someone approached me telling me to 'know god personally,' I'd tell them to buggar off. If I want to hear about it, I'd come to you.

Not to mention the whole idea that humans are superior to animals. That one really irks me.

Oh oh!! And the propaganda! That's the worst!! The setting was welcome week 2008, it was move-in day, and Campus for Christ was out in their full gear without lanyards and helping with move-in. Sure it's great you want to help with move-in. But, you're handing out leaflets to people getting out of their cars on their first day of Uni. I'm sure a the name 'campus for christ' isn't the most comforting thing to see when you first arrive. I could only imagine what someone who is very uncertain about how this university experience will go would feel.

I appreciate having events on the topic of religion but it all depends on how they are run. I went to the Experience Ramadan event in 2008 and had a blast! I learned a lot about their beliefs and ate yummy food! The event was tastefully done and really focused on including everyone. No one told me I should convert to anything nor even gave me the impression that they wanted me to. There wasn't spam all over campus to promote it either. I heard of it through word of mouth.

Whether you're religious or not, people need to be more aware. The KGP thing was not well planned out. Although, it sparked discussion, it also provoked a lot of anger.

Maybe clubs exec should look into a review of their relevant policies on this matter?

Also, wtf is with Campus for Christ's mission statement:

"Campus for Christ exists to help change the world by turning lost students into Christ-centered labourers."

...seriously!?!

....
You're kidding, right?

Oh man, that brings me back to the last time I had jehovah's come to my house.

"Hi we'd like to tell you about blah blah blah"
"I don't believe in god."
"Well, sometimes people experience tramautic things that make them turn away from God.."

I've never wanted to injure someone more in my life.

Because that's the ONLY reason why someone wouldn't believe in god.

It's statements like those that really fuel my extreme hate for religion.

My dog has perma-scared the Jehovahs away. I really love my dog.

Not all religious people are super preachy. A majority aren't, it's just that the select group of individuals who are extreme and annoying misrepresent the group of individuals that they supposedly come from.

It is a logical fallacy to say that religion and science are mutually exclusive. One can be religious (and accepting of evolution) while following their beliefs.

This is coming from someone who is agnostic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...isre/ROCKY.jpg

I'm jealous.
Does this look like a dog that could scare someone away? haha.

i always wished the jehova witnesses would call ahead (since they already looked up my number in the phone book) so I could answer the door looking like this

Originally Posted by temara.brown

I have a few reasons why I'd appreciate religion being kept as something that's more private.

A few days ago, my dad started telling me that he thought he went "all wrong" with me because I'm an atheist. It apparently didn't matter about who I was or anything, he thinks he still went wrong. wtf. super lame. If someone approached me telling me to 'know god personally,' I'd tell them to buggar off. If I want to hear about it, I'd come to you.

Perfectly valid complaint. I appreciate that some people think religion should be kept to oneself, but the same freedom to tell them to bugger off is the freedom they have to approach you about it. And I'm sorry about your dad being a jerk.

Oh oh!! And the propaganda! That's the worst!! The setting was welcome week 2008, it was move-in day, and Campus for Christ was out in their full gear without lanyards and helping with move-in. Sure it's great you want to help with move-in. But, you're handing out leaflets to people getting out of their cars on their first day of Uni. I'm sure a the name 'campus for christ' isn't the most comforting thing to see when you first arrive. I could only imagine what someone who is very uncertain about how this university experience will go would feel.

Ok the first part I get. And I think was a good idea on their part. I'm not sure, however, that something that could feel confrontational such as handing out pamphlets was appropriate. That said, I'm sure there are many people who weren't made entirely comfortable by, for example, the love shop package (that included a condom) in their bag of stuff. Given that I'm sure that it would be no more inappropriate to have an information package given out as part of the various materials given out (better yet something interreligious focusing on how not everything has to be about partying and all that jazz for those who may not be comfortable with some vibes they get during welcome week). I think the key here is avoiding anything that could be confrontational or make someone feel particularly uncomfortable, and going instead for things that minimize this (Like including the condoms in the bag, rather than handing them out in front of people including possibly their parents)

I appreciate having events on the topic of religion but it all depends on how they are run. I went to the Experience Ramadan event in 2008 and had a blast! I learned a lot about their beliefs and ate yummy food! The event was tastefully done and really focused on including everyone. No one told me I should convert to anything nor even gave me the impression that they wanted me to. There wasn't spam all over campus to promote it either. I heard of it through word of mouth.

Whether you're religious or not, people need to be more aware. The KGP thing was not well planned out. Although, it sparked discussion, it also provoked a lot of anger.

Maybe clubs exec should look into a review of their relevant policies on this matter?

I'm pretty sure the only people really p'ed off already (for the most part) had some pretty negative feelings about religion anyways. While some disagreed with or were annoyed with the extent to which the KGP went overboard, the people who seemed the most vocal on this topic in general happened to be those who would be annoyed at any promotion of a religious event with possible undertones of prosthelytizing.

Also, wtf is with Campus for Christ's mission statement:

"Campus for Christ exists to help change the world by turning lost students into Christ-centered labourers."

...seriously!?!

While I really think they need to hire a PR person to tell them how bad that sounds... ok I'm not even going to try and explain what it means because its just so poorly worded for what they're trying to say... they really need a PR person...

It's interesting how it all comes down to the JW.

Other than JW and Mormons have you ever had an evangelist come to your door? We discussed launching an evangelism program at church and we decided that it would be neither productive nor helpful to go around bothering people at their house and chose to go another route.

I would really not appreciate anyone coming to my door to talk about religion. My point was that if I wanted to learn about it, I'd come to you.

And you never know when my "scary" dog is there.



How could anyone be scared of him?!?! SUPER CUTE!!

This picture doesn't show it too well. He hates the camera flash and doesn't like me taking photos.



...I just realized something. This is a dog wearing a hat (though it's sort of falling off here) and I shot this with a wide-angle lens. Now if I had only gone close-up I'd have a hit tv show!! YEAYYY!

Border collie or rough collie? o_O

ps: mine's cuter

Originally Posted by arathbon

Perfectly valid complaint. I appreciate that some people think religion should be kept to oneself, but the same freedom to tell them to bugger off is the freedom they have to approach you about it. And I'm sorry about your dad being a jerk.

He wasn't being a jerk. He wasn't bothering to appreciate choices.. or think. I wasn't too bothered by it because I'm used to him being like that. He's old. Though I'm not one of those who's afraid of 'disrespecting' him because he's my father. I disagreed with his views, so I told him so. Move on to what's for dinner (hopefully it'll be chili!)
I think when it comes down to it, what people here need to respect a person's choice. If you were to come up to me and try to convert me or hand me stuff, especially after I was told that I "went all wrong" from a family member, I would be upset by it and react accordingly. It would be best for all parties to leave it as something for an individual to choose. Don't bombard people with this crap.

Originally Posted by arathbon

Ok the first part I get. And I think was a good idea on their part. I'm not sure, however, that something that could feel confrontational such as handing out pamphlets was appropriate. That said, I'm sure there are many people who weren't made entirely comfortable by, for example, the love shop package (that included a condom) in their bag of stuff. Given that I'm sure that it would be no more inappropriate to have an information package given out as part of the various materials given out (better yet something interreligious focusing on how not everything has to be about partying and all that jazz for those who may not be comfortable with some vibes they get during welcome week). I think the key here is avoiding anything that could be confrontational or make someone feel particularly uncomfortable, and going instead for things that minimize this (Like including the condoms in the bag, rather than handing them out in front of people including possibly their parents)

It was not a good idea because:
- you're supposed to be trained to be a welcome week rep, hence the lanyard. They were liabilities for the uni.
- They are prohibited from doing this in club policy (at least I remember something along the lines of this from the last time I had reason to look it up). Their time is during clubsfest.
- Welcome week is supposed to be something that's inclusive. Trying to convert people or send out the message that "this campus is for christ" is NOT a good idea. Especially when nerves are high for both the students and their parents.

Ya the condom thing can make people uncomfortable but it's supposed to be about keeping everyone healthy, whatever their choice may be. I agree that the message could have been better delivered though.

Originally Posted by arathbon

I'm pretty sure the only people really p'ed off already (for the most part) had some pretty negative feelings about religion anyways. While some disagreed with or were annoyed with the extent to which the KGP went overboard, the people who seemed the most vocal on this topic in general happened to be those who would be annoyed at any promotion of a religious event with possible undertones of prosthelytizing.

The people are p.o.'d because of a general dislike of spam are pretty vocal on this too.. spam is the worst!

Originally Posted by arathbon

While I really think they need to hire a PR person to tell them how bad that sounds... ok I'm not even going to try and explain what it means because its just so poorly worded for what they're trying to say... they really need a PR person...

I'd recommend a revision of their mission altogether. Are they there to convert "lost students" or to make information available about their beliefs. I was never comfortable with even the name "campus for christ" and would have love to see it changed.

Compare it to the MSA who's purpose is:
The main aim of the MSA is to facilitate the practice of Islam for Muslim students of McMaster University in particular, and for Muslims in the McMaster University community at large. In doing so, the MSA seeks to interact with other clubs and associations that it may elucidate the true message of Islam to McMaster students and surrounding communities. The means taken by the MSA to fulfill this mandate shall, in no way, violate any Islamic principles as oulined in the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace). The MSA must, at all times, subject itself to the judgement of Islamic jurisprudence. Therefore, the objectives of the McMaster MSA can be summarized, but not limited by the following: 1. To provide facilities for daily as well as Friday congretional prayers. 2. To organize activities of an educational nature which may be beneficial not only to Muslims, but also to non-Muslims. 3. To organize activities of a social nature for the interaction of Muslims. 4. To establish an organization that may fulfill any needs a Muslim may have on the McMaster campus, be it social, moral, educational or any other.

Much friendlier.

PS These are the two main ones I ever really encountered which is why I chose to contrast the two.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Border collie or rough collie? o_O

ps: mine's cuter

Dude, all puppies are super cute!!

We don't know what he is. He literally showed up on our doorstep one day. Someone must have dropped him off nearby (happens a lot where I live.. especially with cats) because when he showed up, he was super skinny and covered in burs. We took him to the humane society and when no one claimed him, we took him home. He's been the best puppy ever!!.. and he's like 12 now.. and fat.
My cuddles is turning 19 on April 1st. I want to have a birthday celebration for him. You're all invited.