Originally Posted by arathbon

Come on we all know what this is about. It's about the abolishment of religion. The invented right to "freedom FROM religion". No such right exists it is indeed to the "Freedom of religion" the right to choose your religion: muslim, christian, snakehandler or atheist (as the rush song goes "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"). It also allows people to promote whatever they want in public (that goes along with the oh so inconvenient freedom of speech). Choice of underwear is something that doesn't need to be telegraphed yet no one would think twice about underwear advertisements. The fact is the University is a public place and if you want to hide from religious individuals don't go out in public. Likewise (before anyone bites my head off) I think the same thing applies to people who got upset about the atheist marketing campaign with the bus signs ("There's probably no God so stop worrying"). I mean if you don't want to be exposed to a wide range of ideas, opinions and worldviews then stay out of public places. Simple as that.

I don't pay for school to stay away from it, I also don't tolerate promotion of one religion over other by MSU clubs. I don't care if you are religious, just don't use chalk to promote you religion in a place where we should practice inclusiveness not exclusiveness.

Originally Posted by healthsci1

Its a different type of graffiti it promotes unity among first years and representing mcmaster. KGP does not create unity it creates a division between Religious and non religious and if you take a look here
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...EQkM8ojFe8TpZQ
all actions are governed by Mcmaster rules and one of the points is the celebration of diversity. KGP does not celebrate diversity it in turn coerces individuals towards the idea of God.

How is it coercive?

"to coerce (third-person singular simple present coerces, present participle coercing, simple past and past participle coerced)
To restrain by force, especially by law or authority; to repress; to curb.
(transitive) to use force, threat, fraud, or intimidation in attempt to compel one to act against his will.
(transitive) (computing) to force an attribute, normally of a data type, to take on the attribute of another data type."

It is not coercive or divisive but does two things: 1) Promotes a student group's events and 2) Asks a question "Do you have a personally relationship with a higher power?". Some people might come to the conclusion "No I don't and I don't want to", but how does that coerce individuals toward the idea of God?

I strongly disagree with forcing people to believe, but please explain to me how the very presence of this graffiti is forcing you to believe in god or making you feel pressure to do so. If its causing someone that much pressure than I would suggest they have a lot of problems to work through because they're gonna be broke after the next time they watch tv or read a magazine.

Originally Posted by reeves

You were the one saying "graffitti is graffiti and it doesn't belong in an institution for learning." So i guess your issue is with religious graffiti, not graffiti in general, as you previously stated.

I fail to see how it coerces anyone into doing anything. Its asking a question, and putting their philosophy out there. Theyre not rounding people up, tying them to chairs, and brainwashing them with religious propaganda. People are still free to decide whether or not to attend their info sessions. When that freedom is lost, we can talk about coercion.

its difficult to determine whats acceptable graffiti and whats not and it cant be done without some degree of discrimination. My problem isn't with it being religious, if they had KGB in front of every building i wouldn't mind. But on the steps the railing the chalkboard, its a little excessive.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I'm not a religious person, but I don't think religion should be removed from campus. I think it's okay for there to be religious groups and clubs, just like there are groups and clubs for other hobbies, beliefs, etc.

I really dislike all the chalking though. One or two times at the main points of campus (once infront of MUSC and once in the Arts quad, for example) is okay, but this is overboard. In my opinion, this group is becoming very obnoxious with their advertising - chalking every few feet of concrete (including near the hospital which is not right in my opinion), standing infront of people in MUSC when they are walking through, and coming up to people while they are sitting and eating. It's annoying. I've never had a problem with Campus for Christ or any other group on campus before this. It is too much and I think they need to be respectful of other students' space.

Kathy, can you elaborate on why you think it's more wrong to do it near the hospital? (providing they don't block entrances while they're doing it. ie: they gtfo the way when they seen an ambulance or something coming)

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Kathy, can you elaborate on why you think it's more wrong to do it near the hospital? (providing they don't block entrances while they're doing it. ie: they gtfo the way when they seen an ambulance or something coming)

I think it's wrong to advertise to people who aren't necessarily from Mac. If it's a McMaster group, they're of course going to try to get McMaster students to come to their events. But people are at the hospital for tons of reasons - not just school, and sometimes they are in pretty crappy circumstances - and I don't think it's right to "advertise" towards them.

I don't know. I feel like if I'm at the hospital, I don't want some random kids from a school nearby to bother me about their event. Would the KGP people stand at the hospital doors and hand out their flyers to people leaving the hospital in wheelchairs? Probably not, so I don't think chalking near the hospital is right either.

That's just my opinion on it anyway.

Originally Posted by jo87

I don't pay for school to stay away from it, I also don't tolerate promotion of one religion over other by MSU clubs. I don't care if you are religious, just don't use chalk to promote you religion in a place where we should practice inclusiveness not exclusiveness.

You didn't pay for school to come to an sterile environment where you will be only exposed to people who agree with you. And I perhaps agree with you about the MSU clubs thing. Certainly any religious group (including secular humanist) should not be funded or should all be funded. I tend towards the former, but I would not want religious organizations banned from campus like they tried to do at my high school (and they weren't even evangelizing anyone).

I do take issue over your definition of religion as exclusiveness. I know many other religious individuals and the vast majority treat everyone the same, and are welcome and hospitable to others. I know of many instances of inclusive pan-religious services where people from all religions (and non-religions) come together and give thanks for fellowship, our blessings and our world. A great example would be the services held at Scout camps. Religion can indeed be very inclusive. I will use a church service as an example. Every week people of every race, age, socioeconomic background gather together, and share a symbolic meal. They are all treated as equal. Everyone prays, everyone (including the priest) confesses their sins and everyone shares from the same cup.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I think it's wrong to advertise to people who aren't necessarily from Mac. If it's a McMaster group, they're of course going to try to get McMaster students to come to their events. But people are at the hospital for tons of reasons - not just school, and sometimes they are in pretty crappy circumstances - and I don't think it's right to "advertise" towards them.

I don't know. I feel like if I'm at the hospital, I don't want some random kids from a school nearby to bother me about their event. Would the KGP people stand at the hospital doors and hand out their flyers to people leaving the hospital in wheelchairs? Probably not, so I don't think chalking near the hospital is right either.

That's just my opinion on it anyway.

Thanks for the reply, I completely forgot that the hospital is a legit hospital for non-university students.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I think it's wrong to advertise to people who aren't necessarily from Mac. If it's a McMaster group, they're of course going to try to get McMaster students to come to their events. But people are at the hospital for tons of reasons - not just school, and sometimes they are in pretty crappy circumstances - and I don't think it's right to "advertise" towards them.

I don't know. I feel like if I'm at the hospital, I don't want some random kids from a school nearby to bother me about their event. Would the KGP people stand at the hospital doors and hand out their flyers to people leaving the hospital in wheelchairs? Probably not, so I don't think chalking near the hospital is right either.

That's just my opinion on it anyway.

It's a reasonable point.

Originally Posted by arathbon

It's a reasonable point.

Yeah, but it's a minor issue.
I'm sure if you're in a hospital one of the the last things you considered was what was on the ground while you walked in.

My point is that those people shouldn't even have to worry about it. I'm sure it is minor, but it's unnecessary and could easily be avoided.

prayer has been shown to help those who are ill. maybe they would like to attend.

Originally Posted by cocchiarella

prayer has been shown to help those who are ill. maybe they would like to attend.

a) I think you're just trolling to see if Kathy actually blocked you, rofl.
and
b) I'd sooner die than resort to prayer. XDD

Originally Posted by Fight0

Yeah, but it's a minor issue.
I'm sure if you're in a hospital one of the the last things you considered was what was on the ground while you walked in.

I mean yeah its minor, but when there are people who want you shut down, you don't hand them reasons to.

Originally Posted by cocchiarella

prayer has been shown to help those who are ill. maybe they would like to attend.

Maybe, but I think they'd just as likely want the chaplain service or their own minister to come and visit rather than go to a student group.

Originally Posted by arathbon

You didn't pay for school to come to an sterile environment where you will be only exposed to people who agree with you. And I perhaps agree with you about the MSU clubs thing. Certainly any religious group (including secular humanist) should not be funded or should all be funded. I tend towards the former, but I would not want religious organizations banned from campus like they tried to do at my high school (and they weren't even evangelizing anyone).

I do take issue over your definition of religion as exclusiveness. I know many other religious individuals and the vast majority treat everyone the same, and are welcome and hospitable to others. I know of many instances of inclusive pan-religious services where people from all religions (and non-religions) come together and give thanks for fellowship, our blessings and our world. A great example would be the services held at Scout camps. Religion can indeed be very inclusive. I will use a church service as an example. Every week people of every race, age, socioeconomic background gather together, and share a symbolic meal. They are all treated as equal. Everyone prays, everyone (including the priest) confesses their sins and everyone shares from the same cup.

I don't know how using chalk to promote your beliefs is inclusive. If I don't share your religion, how can I feel included in the promotion of your events.