[sdee]

Rise Up is a conference for young adults (aged 18-35) hosted by Catholic Christian Outreach, a Canadian university student movement - but Rise Up is more than a conference. It exists to motivate and inspire leaders for the renewal of the world.

It's an awesome opportunity to meet some amazing people from all over the country! And....wait for it... we're getting us a MACBUS to HALIFAX, so YOU'll have some added bonding time with Mac peeps as well! Now that's a pretty sweet deal, I must say!

For details visit: http://www.ccocanada.ca/en/news-events/rise-up.aspx

If you're interested in going, please send us an email at [email protected] m
We hope to SEE you en route to HALIFAX 2012

--Macsa (McMaster Catholic Students Association)

[Eternal Fire]

I see that at 0:56 you used a quote from the bible. Why didn't you use this one instead?

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 (source)

[chappy89]

I've thought about it long, and hard... and i think I'm greater than Jesus... sorry Jesus.

[Amaryll]

Originally Posted by Eternal Fire

I see that at 0:56 you used a quote from the bible. Why didn't you use this one instead?

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 (source)

Because cherry-picking! =D

[sarah2874]

Originally Posted by Eternal Fire

I see that at 0:56 you used a quote from the bible. Why didn't you use this one instead?

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 (source)

The warfare, corporal punishment, forced labour, etc. in the Old Testament was awful, I'll give you that. But things were different back then. This was before Jesus sacrificed Himself to save us by taking the punishment we all deserve upon Himself, so each individual sinner had to face the consequences of their sin by themselves. They could ask God for forgiveness and offer animal sacrifices (instead of child sacrifices, which were more common in other nations) to make themselves right before God. The Canaanites, however, were living in sin and not repenting. So their deaths, while tragic, were ordered by God because He was judging them for their sin (Deut. 18:12) Since the penalty of sin without repentance is death, this is just (Gen. 2:16-17). But that doesn't make it any less terrible. And God thinks its terrible too, that's why He offers us forgiveness if only we confess our sins and make amends. Before Jesus sacrificed Himself on our behalf, this meant offering animal sacrifices (since the animals acted as scapegoats that took the sins of the people on themselves). Now, it means simply asking for forgiveness in Jesus' name and doing your best not to sin again. Also, if at all possible, you should undo the wrong (if you told a lie, confess it and ask for forgiveness, then tell the truth to set things straight).
So in short, the deaths of the Canaanites were terrible (death always is a tragedy, since it was never supposed to happen in God's original plan), but they died because of their sin. Death is the natural consequence of sin, which means that ordering the Israelites to kill the Canaanites doesn't make God evil (His actions were justified). Rather, we see how amazing, loving, forgiving, and perfect He is by the fact that He doesn't merely kill us all. Instead He gives us a chance to repent and be saved. He loves everyone and wants to save us all, but He leaves the choice of whether to accept Him or not up to us.

[Amaryll]

Arguing with bible quotes? Terrible idea. You've likely been lead to believe (as I was, in Catholic school boards and Sunday school) that Jesus is LOVE and the Christian god of the New Testament is all forgiving and loving. You should read the bible a few times over--unfiltered by your teachers and pastors. It's eye-opening. Stick to the new testament if you wish. Some quick snippets from Christ himself from the not-so-lovey-dovey New Testament:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." - Matthew 10:34-37

Same thing from Luke:

"Do you think I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." Luke 12:51-53

"He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." Matthew 15:4-7

"...the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." 1 Timothy 11:15

(Yes, shut up. Worship me and incubate.)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17 NAB

Yeah, turns out you can't ignore all the horrible commands. All the pestilences, ethnic cleansing, rape (but only the virgins, we don't want to be raping those filthy whores), slavery, misogyny, homophobia, racism, infanticide, genocide and filicide ordered/sanctioned/committed by this loving Christian god? Those are still valid, according to the words of Christ.

I could go on, but I think my point has is clear.

TL;DR: Bible is horrible proof. New Testament is also shitty. The bible in general contradicts itself everywhere. Also, know it better if you're going to debate about it.

[Eternal Fire]

Originally Posted by sarah2874

But things were different back then.

What does it matter if things were different back then? Assuming god exists, isn't he supposed to be consistent? If god is perfect, why would he change?

Originally Posted by sarah2874

This was before Jesus sacrificed Himself to save us by taking the punishment we all deserve upon Himself

So we all deserve to bleed to death? OK that's cool. Doesn't matter if you're a good person, we all sin and we all deserve this.

Originally Posted by sarah2874

They could ask God for forgiveness and offer animal sacrifices (instead of child sacrifices, which were more common in other nations) to make themselves right before God. The Canaanites, however, were living in sin and not repenting. So their deaths, while tragic, were ordered by God because He was judging them for their sin since the penalty of sin without repentance is death

This doesn't make any sense. You're trying to excuse murder, enslavement, and rape, under the basis that they didn't kill animals as gifts for god.

And it wasn't just the Canaanites. The bible mentions many occasions where rape was done in the name of god, first result after a quick google search: http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

Also you say god was judging them, but isn't he judging everyone? How convenient that gods from ancient religions always had a beef with humans, but specifically with enemy cities. Think about the people who wrote these verses. Isn't it too convenient that it was always their enemies who got the short of end of the stick when it came to pleasing god? The truth is, the bible is full of inconsistencies.

So god destroys two entire cities, Sodoma and Gomorrah, because the people inside them were practicing homosexuality. Then, when Lot and his family are on their way out, as the cities are being destroyed, Lot's wife dares to look back. And what happened to her? She turned into a big pile of salt. What the fuck is up with that? God was like "no, you can't turn around to look, you must die now"
Seriously? God punishes this woman for something so trivial? There were people dying down there, isn't it natural to be curious and look back if you hear masses of people screaming in agony? It gets better though. Realizing that their mother is dead, the two daughters get Lot drunk, and they have sex with him (pretty much rape him) with the intention of getting pregnant. Did god kill Lot? No. Did god kill the two daughters? nope. But oh no, don't you dare look at a city in flames, you'll be offending god a little too much.

Originally Posted by sarah2874

But that doesn't make it any less terrible.

Hmmm, so you're admitting that god's actions were terrible then. Why would you follow him if you think his actions are not pure and perfect? After all, if he's omnipotent, he could have found a way to get the job done. Did he really need to tell them to take the women as war prizes?

Originally Posted by sarah2874

And God thinks its terrible too (oh really!), that's why He offers us forgiveness if only we confess our sins and make amends. Before Jesus sacrificed Himself on our behalf, this meant offering animal sacrifices (since the animals acted as scapegoats that took the sins of the people on themselves). Now, it means simply asking for forgiveness in Jesus' name and doing your best not to sin again.

So this means, god actually changed the method by which people get into heaven. Before you had to kill innocent animals, but now you just have to pray and ask for forgiveness. What gives? At what point did he realize that the current system wasn't working? And why did he wait so long to send jesus? Assuming god is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, he has the power to see the future. In fact, he knows the future. He knew things were not going to work out with the whole sacrifice thing going on, so why didn't he sacrifice his son earlier? It was better to wait for all those atrocities made in his name to happen first?

Also, something that jesus said:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matthew 5:17-18

Meaning that you cannot disregard this as being one of the many crazy things in the old testament. So everything still stands.

Originally Posted by sarah2874

So in short, the deaths of the Canaanites were terrible (death always is a tragedy, since it was never supposed to happen in God's original plan)

Again with god's original plan. He's omniscient, he can do everything and he can see the future, how did he fuck up his plan? He knows everything that's gonna happen, so he can plan accordingly, can't he?

Originally Posted by sarah2874

but they died because of their sin. Death is the natural consequence of sin, which means that ordering the Israelites to kill the Canaanites doesn't make God evil (His actions were justified).

His actions are justified because his own plan didn't work out? That's cool. Besides, the bible says the devil doesn't do anything without god's permission. god must lift his magic powers to allow the devil to mess with us. Doesn't this just sound like some twisted game god is playing with us?

Originally Posted by sarah2874

Rather, we see how amazing, loving, forgiving, and perfect He is by the fact that He doesn't merely kill us all. Instead He gives us a chance to repent and be saved. He loves everyone and wants to save us all, but He leaves the choice of whether to accept Him or not up to us.

Here we go, indoctrination 101

This is no different from a salesman coming to your street, knocking door by door saying the following:

Hey people, you're all sick with something. This virus will inevitably cause you to die and suffer. There is no proof that you're actually going to suffer, or that such virus exists, but this book we have from thousands of years ago says that we all have it, we just don't know it.
Don't worry though, there is a way out, take this pill we've been told to deliver door by door. Its recipe was found in the same book. After all, it's free right? why wouldn't you take it?

Turns out, after you take it, you get guilt tripped into joining them. After all, why wouldn't you? The book saved your freaking life! Don't be ungrateful. So you end up joining them, and turns out that this book is filled with all these rules you must follow. Who cares if this organization that delivers the precious cure has been known to get in the way of social and scientific development? Who cares if this organization hates homosexuals? Who cares if this organization has been, at different points of history, nothing but a political tool to achieve its own means? And who cares if they've killed people in the past simply because they refused to take this magic pill, the divine gift? They hold the ultimate truth, because that's what the book says.

After all, "every word of god is flawlesss" (Proverbs 30:5). The ultimate brainwashing punchline.

[Atheist?]

Look up Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins; two very popular youtube atheists from you may learn something (sadly the former is dead but his passion lives on). Or even read the bible without rose-tinted glasses; I mean what kind of book that promotes rape, enslavement, the genocide of a race of people and a many other horrible things, is a book by which you wish to live life by?

Live life and have fun.

[Chevalier]

Originally Posted by sarah2874

But things were different back then.

I think overall that is a horrible argument to make.

If I may impose a question, what is your stance on LGBTQ, gay marriages, abortion, etc.

Many religious, not restricting it to one religion, individuals, though not all, are against such things because they have been forbidden in their religious text. (just trying to be open and all inclusive with this but we all know the main one im talking about)

Now you use the argument that "things were different back then" referring to the content from the old being "outdated" if i amy paraphrase, and that the new testament called on a more pious and noble life? .... then why can this argument not be used in the current date, what is it that religion still continues to deny people of who they are, what may be best for them, and what they desire.

Religion changes constantly, people pick and choose what they wish depending on what accurately reflects their personal stance and the current world view. Yet the current religious tachings are highly outdated. Maybe someone needs to create a new new testiment and update the stuff...

yea ... that was a bad argument but hope you get my point, and im not saying you are like this but still the argument you make is invalid

[sarah2874]

I should really be studying right now, but there are a lot of posts here and I don't want to leave them unanswered. I'll start with Amaryll:
Yes, I argue the Bible with quotes because (as you pointed out the importance of) I use God's word and not other people's biased commentary on it to live my life.
When reading the Bible though, its important to remember that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. In other words, context is important. Including context from the verse you quoted from Matthew 10:34-37. If you read all of Matthew 10, you'll see that Jesus isn't talking about how Christians should be violent towards others. He's talking about how others will be violent towards them for their beliefs (Matt. 10: 21-22). He's saying this to prepare the disciples (who He's sending out) for the task ahead. He wants them to know its not going to be easy, and even their friends and family members will turn on them.
This verse is not condoning violence against others. In fact, Jesus stressed the importance of peace over violence many times. When He was arrested and one of His followers fought against the people arresting Him to protect Him, Jesus scolded him (Matt.52-54). He also mentioned in Matthew 5:39 that if someone wrongs you, you should turn the other cheek instead of seeking revenge. Jesus IS peaceful and loving.
The same goes for Luke 12.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with the Matthew 15 quote, but again, that's condemning such sinful actions against others (including our parents, who should be honoured) as cursing them. Instead, we should show them love (Mark 12:31).
As for the 1 Corinthians 14 and Timothy (the quote is actually 1 Timothy 2:11-15), this too must be taken in context. The context important here though, is cultural. In ancient Rome, women were expected to submit to their husbands. They were simply wives and mothers (http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/women.html). They didn't have the same rights we have today, and were expected to as you say "shut up" and "incubate." This was a cultural rather than spiritual expectation though.
Also, I agree with your quote from Luke 16:17. Jesus was very clear on the fact that He didn't come to overthrow the law (as was expected of the Jewish saviour), but to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). The OT laws, like the 10 Commandsments, are still relevant. We can't murder, steal, covet, etc. The law is good and does not need to be changed. Rape, ethnic cleansing, slavery, etc. were not laws though. God ordered the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites because of their sin and refusal to repent. This was His act of judgement and was meant to get rid of the evil in the land so the people wouldn't be bad influences on Israel later on. It wasn't a long-standing law that meant the people should kill others at every chance they got.
Anyways, I have class now so I have to leave it at this for now.

[starfish]

Originally Posted by sarah2874

I should really be studying right now, but there are a lot of posts here and I don't want to leave them unanswered. I'll start with Amaryll:
Yes, I argue the Bible with quotes because (as you pointed out the importance of) I use God's word and not other people's biased commentary on it to live my life.

The Bible is not God's "word". Human beings wrote it, human beings compiled it and chose what should go in it, human beings translated it into English (or whatever language you read it in). It is NOT a historical account and needs to be taken with a nice heaping spoonful of salt.

[Eternal Fire]

Originally Posted by sarah2874

If you read all of Matthew 10, you'll see that Jesus isn't talking about how Christians should be violent towards others. He's talking about how others will be violent towards them for their beliefs (Matt. 10: 21-22).

Are we talking about the same peaceful, all loving jesus here?

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”

John 2:13-16 (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

So he pretty much went over to these people, uninvited, and started freaking out. He flipped over tables, threw people's money around and he was yelling at strangers while whipping their animals. Is this the example you want to follow?

Of course, you don't have to do this because this rarely happens in Canada but, have you ever been to a church in a third world country? They still do this. It's not uncommon to see people selling food, paintings, music/dvds and so on. It's practically a market they set up right outside of church. So if you ever see this with your own eyes, you have to ask yourself, what would jesus do? Was he really a messenger of peace? If you don't do as he did, you'd be disobeying the bible.

That's the whole point of this "rise up" movement. To go to other places, talk to other people and spread the message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...S4JPMQ#t=2181s

Watch from 36:21 to 38:06

Listen to this for a minute. This guy is arrogant enough to say that their way of life "is the only life worth living, all the rest is a pile of BS"

It doesn't matter if I dedicate my life to pursuing knowledge and lessening the suffering of others, according to this guy my life would have no true "meaning, purpose or passion until I discover his[god's] meaning, his[god's] purpose and his[god's] passion."

Well fuck that then I cannot take anything these people say seriously if they actually believe that.

[Amaryll]

Originally Posted by sarah2874

The context important here though, is cultural. In ancient Rome, women were expected to submit to their husbands. They were simply wives and mothers (http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/women.html). They didn't have the same rights we have today, and were expected to as you say "shut up" and "incubate." This was a cultural rather than spiritual expectation though.

Thank you for reminding me that your all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God and his son on earth can be excused because "cultural expectation!" You should have a chat with someone who has African-American roots about how we have to understand that slavery is just the way things were! It was just the culture, which means there was absolutely nothing wrong with it back then! The teachings of Christ were misogynistic, but srsly dude some of the stuff that he said was cultural. But other stuff you HAVE to follow, because we get to cherry-pick the "word of God."

You like to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah and try to justify it, so why not share your opinion on homosexuality so we can pick it apart, regardless of what it is. If you're okay with it: Bible quotes and Catholic catechism quotes to show that both expect you not to be. How dare you encourage others to sin. If you're not okay with it... I don't think I need to explain that.

Thank you for reminding me why I really, really need to stop arguing with people who post replies that pretty much challenge...well, none of my points.

TL;DR: I'm outta here, should've known better.

[jim1]

Lots of time we question God, and say, how dare God do this and that, how dare God kill people like that, burn cities, and be so cruel to people. Before we make these judgments, we have to know that God made us…okay I am gonna stop for a second here as people already disagree with what I am saying. Let’s take a quick real life example:

Let’s say you are a pot maker, and decided to make a pot a certain shape, if that pot can talk (just assume), do you think it has the right to question it’s maker and tell him/her, how dare you make me small, how dare you make me into this shape, how dare you do this and that? I think it’s pretty clear that the pot has no right to question its maker. You, as a pot maker designed it in a certain way, you have all the right to do whatever things you want to do with it, you can break it, throw it away, or just use it (and you have all the right to use it whatever way you want/feel best for that pot).

This is not any different than us and God. As a person of different religious background, you are obviously going to disagree, but bear with me for now. As Christians we believe in God, and we believe that God created us. Genesis 2:7-8: "7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed."

It’s clear from these verses that we were created by God, and later in verse 8, we see the similarity between my example and the verse. After God created Adam, we see that he planted a Garden and put him there. God knew what was best for Adam, he didn't create him and leave him on his own, or he didn't put him in outer space hanging there by himself. He absolutely could have done that, but he didn't.

That’s what I am trying to get at, we as humans were created by God, and he placed us on earth, which he though was best for us. Therefore, do you think, we as humans should be questioning God all the time saying, “Why did you kill that person?”, “Why did you let this happen to me?”, “How dare you kill innocent people like that?”, “How dare you let this happen?”, and the list goes on.

Now as long as you don’t believe in God, or his word, you are always going to be questioning him. On the other hand, we Christians believe in God, we believe in the Bible (I will get to that in a second), therefore, we don’t question him and say, “How dare you do this and that?” We know that he has a plan for us, we trust in his plan. On the other hand, people of different religious backgrounds, will continue to question God because they don’t believe that God is the maker of all, and has the right to do whatever he wants. Just like the pot maker, who created the pot, he has all the right to do whatever he wants with the pot that he made. The pot has no right to question its maker.

Now I am not saying that you shouldn't question some verses in the Bible that you didn't understand, you have all the right to ask for clarifications, but you do not have the right to question the maker, and say “How dare you do this and that”. As long as you guys won’t believe in “God”, you are always going to question his word and say “well God killed that many people, he is not fair”.

Again, you are not going to believe what I am going to write because you don’t believe in God, but I am going to share some points here. You guys said that it’s a terrible idea for us to say “well things were different back then”. Well clearly things were different back then. How do you think God had to deal with the rebellious people, after all, since he is the maker, he does have the right not just as a maker, but as a God to deal with the people the way he wants to; the way he thinks is best for them. We don’t have the right to question him, it was his plan and it was right. There are some pretty tough verses in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, but God had to deal with the rebellious people. Clearly he knew what he was doing. Again, if you don’t believe in God and that he is the maker of us all, you are going to constantly attack the Bible, trying to prove that God was not fair. As a Christian I believe that he is more than fair. In the New Testament we see how God dealt with people in a different way. He sent his only Son on earth, so that people might believe in him and have eternal life (John 3:16).

Also, you guys mentioned that it’s a “terrible” idea to argue with Bible quotes. Well, how else are we going to clear some of the confusions that people have? Our Bible is our proof. In fact, this verse right here hits it on the nail:
Hebrews 4:12: "12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

As a Christian this is enough proof for me to believe that I should take the word of God (The Bible) seriously and use it as a proof. We can’t prove anything to you guys without going back to the Bible, we can’t just ignore it and start making random assumptions based on what we think is right. Our proof is the word of God, the Bible, and we take it very seriously.

Someone posted some verses from John 2:13-16 arguing how Jesus’s actions were wrong/not called for. Well, again we have to understand what these verses mean. In these verses we see how Christ got angry with the people and basically kicked them out of the temple. First off, the temple is Christ’s body and thus, belongs to him (John 2:21).

We rarely see Jesus Christ angry in the Bible. When Christ came over and saw what was happening in the temple it was the time of the Passover, a celebration remembering how God delivered the Israelites from the bondage of Egypt. So people should be going to the temple at that time to thank God for what he did. Now, when Christ came, and saw how people were trying to make profit instead of thanking God for what he did, he got angry and kicked them out. Were his actions justified? You can answer that yourself.

I am done now; actually I am done with this thread. Even if anyone replies, I am not going to reply back. As long as you don’t believe in God, and don’t believe that he is the maker of all, and can do whatever he wants (which is always right), this thread will not go anywhere, it will just go in circles, and we’ll be wasting our time.