Without getting into my own personal beliefs, I just have one question for those that go out of their way to prove Christians wrong and belittle their beliefs: If you are free to choose your belief system, why aren't they? What personal stake do you have in seeing their core values ridiculed? At the end of the day, you're not going to change anybody's views, so why even bother?

Originally Posted by J. Dorey

Without getting into my own personal beliefs, I just have one question for those that go out of their way to prove Christians wrong and belittle their beliefs: If you are free to choose your belief system, why aren't they? What personal stake do you have in seeing their core values ridiculed? At the end of the day, you're not going to change anybody's views, so why even bother?

Wrong people on the internet bug some people. They just don't get the futility of it; its amusing though.
Religion is bullshit and demonstrably false, but I don't really see why people are pooing on this thread, its their little event thing...let em be :/

Originally Posted by jim1

Lots of time we question God, and say, how dare God do this and that, how dare God kill people like that, burn cities, and be so cruel to people. Before we make these judgments, we have to know that God made us…okay I am gonna stop for a second here as people already disagree with what I am saying. Let’s take a quick real life example:

Let’s say you are a pot maker, and decided to make a pot a certain shape, if that pot can talk (just assume), do you think it has the right to question it’s maker and tell him/her, how dare you make me small, how dare you make me into this shape, how dare you do this and that? I think it’s pretty clear that the pot has no right to question its maker. You, as a pot maker designed it in a certain way, you have all the right to do whatever things you want to do with it, you can break it, throw it away, or just use it (and you have all the right to use it whatever way you want/feel best for that pot).

This is not any different than us and God. As a person of different religious background, you are obviously going to disagree, but bear with me for now. As Christians we believe in God, and we believe that God created us. Genesis 2:7-8: "7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed."

It’s clear from these verses that we were created by God, and later in verse 8, we see the similarity between my example and the verse. After God created Adam, we see that he planted a Garden and put him there. God knew what was best for Adam, he didn't create him and leave him on his own, or he didn't put him in outer space hanging there by himself. He absolutely could have done that, but he didn't.

That’s what I am trying to get at, we as humans were created by God, and he placed us on earth, which he though was best for us. Therefore, do you think, we as humans should be questioning God all the time saying, “Why did you kill that person?”, “Why did you let this happen to me?”, “How dare you kill innocent people like that?”, “How dare you let this happen?”, and the list goes on.

Now as long as you don’t believe in God, or his word, you are always going to be questioning him. On the other hand, we Christians believe in God, we believe in the Bible (I will get to that in a second), therefore, we don’t question him and say, “How dare you do this and that?” We know that he has a plan for us, we trust in his plan. On the other hand, people of different religious backgrounds, will continue to question God because they don’t believe that God is the maker of all, and has the right to do whatever he wants. Just like the pot maker, who created the pot, he has all the right to do whatever he wants with the pot that he made. The pot has no right to question its maker.

Now I am not saying that you shouldn't question some verses in the Bible that you didn't understand, you have all the right to ask for clarifications, but you do not have the right to question the maker, and say “How dare you do this and that”. As long as you guys won’t believe in “God”, you are always going to question his word and say “well God killed that many people, he is not fair”.

Again, you are not going to believe what I am going to write because you don’t believe in God, but I am going to share some points here. You guys said that it’s a terrible idea for us to say “well things were different back then”. Well clearly things were different back then. How do you think God had to deal with the rebellious people, after all, since he is the maker, he does have the right not just as a maker, but as a God to deal with the people the way he wants to; the way he thinks is best for them. We don’t have the right to question him, it was his plan and it was right. There are some pretty tough verses in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, but God had to deal with the rebellious people. Clearly he knew what he was doing. Again, if you don’t believe in God and that he is the maker of us all, you are going to constantly attack the Bible, trying to prove that God was not fair. As a Christian I believe that he is more than fair. In the New Testament we see how God dealt with people in a different way. He sent his only Son on earth, so that people might believe in him and have eternal life (John 3:16).

Also, you guys mentioned that it’s a “terrible” idea to argue with Bible quotes. Well, how else are we going to clear some of the confusions that people have? Our Bible is our proof. In fact, this verse right here hits it on the nail:
Hebrews 4:12: "12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

As a Christian this is enough proof for me to believe that I should take the word of God (The Bible) seriously and use it as a proof. We can’t prove anything to you guys without going back to the Bible, we can’t just ignore it and start making random assumptions based on what we think is right. Our proof is the word of God, the Bible, and we take it very seriously.

Someone posted some verses from John 2:13-16 arguing how Jesus’s actions were wrong/not called for. Well, again we have to understand what these verses mean. In these verses we see how Christ got angry with the people and basically kicked them out of the temple. First off, the temple is Christ’s body and thus, belongs to him (John 2:21).

We rarely see Jesus Christ angry in the Bible. When Christ came over and saw what was happening in the temple it was the time of the Passover, a celebration remembering how God delivered the Israelites from the bondage of Egypt. So people should be going to the temple at that time to thank God for what he did. Now, when Christ came, and saw how people were trying to make profit instead of thanking God for what he did, he got angry and kicked them out. Were his actions justified? You can answer that yourself.

I am done now; actually I am done with this thread. Even if anyone replies, I am not going to reply back. As long as you don’t believe in God, and don’t believe that he is the maker of all, and can do whatever he wants (which is always right), this thread will not go anywhere, it will just go in circles, and we’ll be wasting our time.

LOL

I don't have time to answer every single thing right now, because I'm going to bed and I have an 8:30 class tomorrow morning, but two passages come to mind right now.

Romans 12:2
"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21
"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good,"

Now, do you know the meaning of the word quench?

Originally Posted by Eternal Fire

LOL

Dude, just...



Also, still no response on LGBT issues. Lol.

I solemnly swear that I will never again argue with fundies on the Internet.

Originally Posted by jim1

Lots of time we question God, and say, how dare God do this and that, how dare God kill people like that, burn cities, and be so cruel to people. Before we make these judgments, we have to know that God made us…okay I am gonna stop for a second here as people already disagree with what I am saying. Let’s take a quick real life example:

Let’s say you are a pot maker, and decided to make a pot a certain shape, if that pot can talk (just assume), do you think it has the right to question it’s maker and tell him/her, how dare you make me small, how dare you make me into this shape, how dare you do this and that? I think it’s pretty clear that the pot has no right to question its maker. You, as a pot maker designed it in a certain way, you have all the right to do whatever things you want to do with it, you can break it, throw it away, or just use it (and you have all the right to use it whatever way you want/feel best for that pot).

I didn't read your whole post, but I'm confused about your pot analogy. You say you think it's pretty clear that the pot has no right to question its maker. I don't understand why. Assuming the pot is a sentient being, the maker has a responsibility to the pot to make it properly. It does not have a responsibility to answer all of the pot's questions, but the pot has every right to ask those questions anyways. Abandoning the pot analogy, asking questions is better than blind acceptance, and many people find that it strengthens their faith.

Originally Posted by RyanC

Wrong people on the internet bug some people. They just don't get the futility of it; its amusing though.
Religion is bullshit and demonstrably false, but I don't really see why people are pooing on this thread, its their little event thing...let em be :/

Yeah, as long as people aren't forcing their religion on me (ie those people who used to randomly pop up out of nowhere on campus and try to convince you to take time to know god) then it's fine. I do think legit discussions are valuable because religious and non-religious people coexist, and therefore an understanding of what the other side thinks is important. What really frustrates me though, is that talking to two different people of the same religion (no matter what the religion is), will give you two different opinions on it, and each tend to insist that they are following their religion most purely (ie, the "following the word of god not other people's interpretations" comment that someone said earlier). Or maybe a better example is homosexuality. Some Christians absolutely insist it's wrong because of x, y and z in the Bible and others will insist the exact opposite based on a, b and c in the Bible.
Anyways, they always turn out to be interesting discussions, when people stop being all defensive.

You can believe in whatever you want and if you want to accept the bible as truth, go for it. But this bugs me:

Well clearly things were different back then. How do you think God had to deal with the rebellious people, after all, since he is the maker, he does have the right not just as a maker, but as a God to deal with the people the way he wants to; the way he thinks is best for them. We don’t have the right to question him, it was his plan and it was right. There are some pretty tough verses in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, but God had to deal with the rebellious people. Clearly he knew what he was doing. Again, if you don’t believe in God and that he is the maker of us all, you are going to constantly attack the Bible, trying to prove that God was not fair. As a Christian I believe that he is more than fair. In the New Testament we see how God dealt with people in a different way. He sent his only Son on earth, so that people might believe in him and have eternal life (John 3:16).

This bugs me because, assuming god does exist, it is hard to tell the difference between someone who had a bad dream and thought he was supposed to kill a bunch of people, and someone that god actually told to kill people. In both cases, if they get enough people to believe them then they will kill others, but in gods eyes one would be a monster and the other would be praised.

This is much more obvious in today's society thanks to the awareness of mental illnesses (sorry if I didn't word this better). If you had a dream right now where god told you to kill everyone from the party house down the street and you believed it was really him, would you do it? You get into the fun case of morality vs. religion. By society, you are a monster and there is something wrong with you, but on the other hand you don't know whether it was actually god or just a dream telling you so you may have appeased him or pissed him off.

This is why I don't like when people do something in the name of religion, since you never know if the person is crazy or if he was actually supposed to

This is why I don't like when people do something in the name of religion, since you never know if the person is crazy or if he was actually supposed to

so you actually believe it is possible for someone to be told to do something like murder because god told them to in a dream?

Originally Posted by Atheist?

Look up Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins; two very popular youtube atheists from you may learn something (sadly the former is dead but his passion lives on). Or even read the bible without rose-tinted glasses; I mean what kind of book that promotes rape, enslavement, the genocide of a race of people and a many other horrible things, is a book by which you wish to live life by?

Live life and have fun.

I agree with this guy.
Also RIP Hitch :'(

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you had a dream right now where god told you to kill everyone from the party house down the street and you believed it was really him, would you do it?

Technically i should be studying for my midterms, but you raised a good question. As mentioned earlier, God had to deal with people in a different way in the old testament. I am not going into details here because i explained it earlier, i just want to get to your question. You are wondering if it's allowed for us nowadays to kill people in the name of Jesus Christ. The answer is simply no, we are not allowed nowadays (from a Christian point of view) to kill or even hurt anyone. If you read in the new testament, you will never see a verse where God is ordering people to kill/hurt anyone else. The whole new testament talks about Love, how we should love one another, and forgive others.

I just want to share these few verses with you from the Gospel of Matthew (chapter 5):
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+5&version=NIV

So you see, God will never appear in a dream to me or anyone else and order us to kill anyone. From the verses above we see how Christ is even ordering us to pray for our enemies. If anyone comes up to you saying, "I had a dream last night where God told me to kill that person", simply direct them to the nearest mental health clinic!

Originally Posted by starfish

I didn't read your whole post

If you read my whole post you will find your answer. I clearly mentioned how we should always ask for clarification if we don't understand something.

Originally Posted by Amaryll

Dude, just...



Also, still no response on LGBT issues. Lol.

I solemnly swear that I will never again argue with fundies on the Internet.

haha Love that gif but this version:

Originally Posted by jim1

As mentioned earlier, God had to deal with people in a different way in the old testament. I am not going into details here because i explained it earlier, i just want to get to your question. You are wondering if it's allowed for us nowadays to kill people in the name of Jesus Christ. The answer is simply no, we are not allowed nowadays (from a Christian point of view) to kill or even hurt anyone. If you read in the new testament, you will never see a verse where God is ordering people to kill/hurt anyone else. The whole new testament talks about Love, how we should love one another, and forgive others.

This is outright a lie. You're either trying to purposely deceive people or you actually haven't read the bible yourself. Of course, almost all christians nowadays try to turn this into an "old testament vs new testament" kind of argument, without realizing that the new testament is just as bad.

Take for example what jesus said in the new testament:

So not only is jesus ok with what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah, he says it will be worse for any other city if its people reject the message of the prophets. Sounds more like a message of fear, and not love, trying to spread their beliefs by force, presenting the threat of a punishment:
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Matthew 10:14-15

You shouldn't love god, but be afraid of him:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:5

Jesus is not a messenger of peace:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns:
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:37

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law:
And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ Mark 7:9-10

Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21 in which God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, John 3:14

Do you know the story of Ananias and Sapphira? According to the new testament, this was a couple who sold a land, and since they didn't give all their money to Peter (not even jesus), they were killed on the spot, just for lying (Acts 5:1-10). And have you read the book of revelations? It's whole purpose is to scare people about the future, describing how the world is going to end and how all the non-believers are going to suffer during the process.

Also, what about the misogyny in 1 Corinthians 11:7-10 which is in the new testament?
A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.

So not the "whole new testament" is a message of love and forgiveness as you claim, but rather a message of fear which is continuous with the trend of the old testament.

Originally Posted by jim1

So you see, God will never appear in a dream to me or anyone else and order us to kill anyone.

Oh really! Because according to your holy book, that's exactly what happened to Peter (and yes, this is written in the new testament too):

I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’ “I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! (what is this, Peter questioning god's will? Not a blind believer?) Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ “The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again. Acts 11:5-10

Originally Posted by jim1

If anyone comes up to you saying, "I had a dream last night where God told me to kill that person", simply direct them to the nearest mental health clinic!

Too bad they didn't have mental institutions back then eh! If they did we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

Also, your post with the pot analogy is ridiculous. I didn't bother answering everything the first time, but since you commented back in this thread I may as well get it out of the way.

Originally Posted by jim1

Lots of time we question God, and say, how dare God do this and that, how dare God kill people like that, burn cities, and be so cruel to people.

Here you're actually changing the argument. In order to question god, I would actually need to believe there is a god. I am actually questioning everything that is said by those who believe in god, and that includes the bible (among other religious books).

Even if there was a god, there is nothing that indicates the bible was inspired by god. A big portion of it was written by uneducated sheep keepers who were probably suffering from all kinds of mental illnesses.
There is actual evidence that these manuscripts have been both modified at different times of history (taking things out and putting new things in), and translated from language to language so many times there are actually hundreds of versions of the bible.

Relevant (around 2:22): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q37NhrCPNo&feature=plcp
(Here is part 1 which is also interesting)

Originally Posted by jim1

Let’s take a quick real life example:

Your example is not a real life example, as there are no pots that talk. Just wanted to point that out.

Originally Posted by jim1

Let’s say you are a pot maker, and decided to make a pot a certain shape, if that pot can talk (just assume), do you think it has the right to question it’s maker and tell him/her, how dare you make me small, how dare you make me into this shape, how dare you do this and that?

No one in this thread is actually questioning the size or shape of humans. For an understanding of why we have the shape and form we do, just study evolution.

Originally Posted by jim1

I think it’s pretty clear that the pot has no right to question its maker.

I'm pretty sure this is a logical fallacy. Stating that things are clear just so you don't have to explain them yourself. Please, tell me, why is it so clear that the pot has no right to question its maker?

Originally Posted by jim1

You, as a pot maker designed it in a certain way, you have all the right to do whatever things you want to do with it, you can break it, throw it away, or just use it (and you have all the right to use it whatever way you want/feel best for that pot). This is not any different than us and God.

What do you mean that this is not different? Of course it is!
Assuming there is a god, and assuming the bible is god's word (which is not, it was written by humans), then God created mankind in his own image (Genesis 1:27), that is unlike any of his other creations. What was the point of this? He already had plenty of angels to worship him nonstop. He already had plenty of animals if he just wanted to watch random creatures coexist. What's so special about humans? He gave humans the ability to think. He gave humans the ability to reason and to use logic, which can be used to make decisions and to elaborate questions. Assuming that god is perfect, then this wasn't a mistake, but something intentional (you said it yourself, god knows what is best for us), something that was meant to be used. And that's the part that it doesn't make sense with most blind-believers. Why would he give you a brain if he didn't want you to use it? It doesn't make any sense. If you answer that problem with "don't question god" then that is circular statement. "I should not question god because he told me not to question god" is a begging the question fallacy.

Also, there is a contradiction in the bible about this. You cannot re-conciliate blind faith with the two verses I gave you of my shorter post. Romans 12:2 and 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 say that you should use your mind to test what god's will is, and that should examine all prophecies, not just blindly accept them.

Furthermore, I have a problem with you (and christians) who claim everything god did was right because he is god. Are actions morally right because god did them, or did god commit those actions because they were right?
IF everything that god does is right just because he does it, then he could commit the worst kind of actions. Being omnipotent, he could commit the worst kinds of evils, and they would still be righteous actions. That would mean that right and wrong would be a meaningless distinction, and there would be no point for punishing evil actions, if there are circumstances in which these actions were godly. If you take this one step further, that would make heaven and hell pointless, there would be no such thing as a sin. This double morality that christians take, saying that god is all good and perfect (but he can practically sin and break his own laws) renders the bible pointless as a source of morals.


Also, another question which I don't expect you to answer, but I'll ask anyways, what makes you think that your god is the right god, and your religion is the right religion? There are thousands of religions out there, so what makes yours right and others wrong? Were you just lucky enough to be born in a family with the right religion? Because people from other religions feel that too!