Hey guys,

I'm in first year eng. Wanted to go into software for the longest time. Learned recently that software isn't the best over here. Anyone care to fill me in on the ups and downs? I've heard they are trying to overhaul the program, is this true? Are they improving it?

Thanks in advance.

Pros:
- it floats

Cons:
- half baked curriculum that was unchanged since the 90s when the program was designed
- no enterprise level programming
- overcrowded classes
- many of the labs are not accessible to students outside the lab time
- classes are generally poorly organized, including piss-poor communication and laziness on behalf of most profs
- somehow courses that i found easy (and im not even a B student), were hated and done poorly in by most students, making me think they accept whoever just to accept as many bodies into the program
- labs are quite old and require significant overhaul, that includes constantly crashing computers and old software
- complete lack of vision on the department chair's half


And if course there's like a 10 page report I can write on every small thing that is broken in every single software course that I took

Frankly, seeing how all employers look for in Software Engineers today is code monkeys, potential students would be better off doing a 3 year college program in Mohawk. They'd learn more, get in dept less and would be out of school much faster.

I've heard they are trying to overhaul the program, is this true? Are they improving it?

Really? Hmm, wonder how. Lets put it this way. Last year we had maybe 150 students in a class (but probably less seeing how the class used that small lecture hall in 2nd floor of JHE). This year that same class has over 300 students. They didn't really change the class, in fact its using the same number of TAs. So the class became filthy overpopulated so that people will get almost no amount of help.

Are they improving it? Yeah I guess. They are improving the amount of money they can milk the software employment craze before it bursts. But that's not why you or other people want to take Software Engineering, is it?

PS. Here's the previous Soft Eng bashing thread:

http://www.macinsiders.com/showthrea...ftware+su cks

If software is your first choice out of the twelve eng programs, then just do it and make the most of it.
If software is not your first choice, put your foot down, get the marks and get into your first choice and forget about software eng at mac.
This is based on what I've read and seen so far, but this is just my first semester, ask me again in late second semester if you want my opinion of the whole year.
Has it changed? I think it has, but I can't really comment about specifics since I didn't experience it first hand.

Some sound advice, you'll learn more on your own than you'll even learn in class. Use the classes as stepping stones and learn on your own and you'll go far kid. This applies to any eng course/program.

Some sound advice, you'll learn more on your own than you'll even learn in class. Use the classes as stepping stones and learn on your own and you'll go far kid. This applies to any eng course/program.

I personally disagree with this attitude. Imagine if Comp Eng and Mech Eng students weren't doing any (relevant) work in the labs, and were simply relying on whatever the heck they could learn on their own. The complexity of the work that has to be done in order to be worthy anything on the job market wouldn't allow that. Same thing is with software.

Seeing how we are paying so much money, we should be getting something out of it other than a piece of paper saying we've graduated, and that doesn't stand on its own if you don't have any work experience. Otherwise it's even worse than college that has smaller classes with large hands-on component, and that costs like fraction of the cost we pay.

As a former computer science undergrad and current TA and PhD student, I'll weigh in a bit.

There is an overhaul of the undergrad courses in computing and software currently ongoing; as the class in 3rd year has been going through their programs, the courses are changing. So the courses up to 3rd year are different than they have been in the past.

It is true, though, that if all you want to learn is programming, software engineering (and computer science) at McMaster or any university is not what you want. You will spend more time on theory and general concepts rather than specifics used in the industry currently.

Disclaimer: My passion in computer science is theory, not practice, so my viewpoint is more optimistic than some.

Comp, Mech, Civ, Elec... No one is really doing anything that you will do out in the field, and you shouldn't be, in a University undergraduate course... That's what college was meant for.

I would back up Justicebeaver's statement: You'll learn more for the field, than you ever will in class;
I would add that you will learn how to learn on your own, through class. And that is what the engineering degree is supposed to do: Give you the principles to go off and learn on your own.

Originally Posted by mike_302

Comp, Mech, Civ, Elec... No one is really doing anything that you will do out in the field, and you shouldn't be, in a University undergraduate course... That's what college was meant for.

I would back up Justicebeaver's statement: You'll learn more for the field, than you ever will in class;
I would add that you will learn how to learn on your own, through class. And that is what the engineering degree is supposed to do: Give you the principles to go off and learn on your own.

In Comp Eng you work with FPGAs. You are at least familiar with the hardware, how to use it, what makes it tick, and you work on cool kind of projects. Imagine if that was replaced with just a 3 lecture per week kind of thing where you learn about hardware design in pictures, without actually touching the thing. It would be laughed at by other universities.

Same thing applies to Mech Eng, Chem Eng, and Elec Eng.

Okay --- I can imagine it, but I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that Software Eng is just 3 lectures a week? What do you want?

Originally Posted by GeorgeLucas

Imagine if that was replaced with just a 3 lecture per week kind of thing where you learn about hardware design in pictures, without actually touching the thing. It would be laughed at by other universities.

Better inform the other universities because you just described 2GA3, except its one 3hr lecture per week. There is a quiz every week about 30-45 min and then a short 10 minute break into the 3hr lecture.

We're given about 20 minutes to write the quiz, some people finish early and leave. Then once the 20 minutes are up, half the class leaves... and doesn't come back.

The professor literally reads slides (which summarize the book) in monotone. I read the book and then I sit in class for 30 minutes, hear him repeat what the book said, I write the quiz and after, like half the class, I go home. And time isn't even an issue when it comes to covering stuff in detail or doing some concrete examples/ demo in class, as he put up a video in the last hour.

The most fun thing about the course of far, two mips assembly programming assignments..

From what I heard, since Wolfram was teaching last year, it's easier, but even then I can't say I really got anything out of the lectures. The book, yeah, learned some stuff, but for 900 bucks, it'd be wiser to use the money to buy breakfast for the semester.

You are here. You want software eng. Go with it and build upon the knowledge they give you using external resources. Software is probably the best field for this. Its highly practical and has a TON of resources online. Companies also look at portfolio's and experience more than grades etc.

I find this guys Java stuff (design patterns, refactoring etc) excellent. https://www.youtube.com/user/derekbanas

Were I to start again now Id probably focus on full stack JS development. Something like Angular/React + NodeJS/Express + MongoDB. This gives you everything. Make a simple web app and get an internship as soon as possible using projects like this as the edge you need.

Everything you need to become a good software developer can be found online and with practice. Look at the fourth year curriculum and pick out anything practical. You should be able to learn it by the end of summer. Especially things like SQL/databases which is considered mandatory knowledge and trivial - and often taught in first year.

Originally Posted by qwerty91

Companies also look at portfolio's and experience more than grades etc.

But then why would you spend 3 more years in University, when you can do the same thing in College that is cheaper and more student friendly? Either way, in Software your employment depends on your portfolio more than anything else

Originally Posted by GeorgeLucas

But then why would you spend 3 more years in University, when you can do the same thing in College that is cheaper and more student friendly?

Excellent question Perhaps that would've served you better and you wouldn't be so bitter about your n-years here at Mac...

And let your question be excellent advice for anyone else looking at Software: Know that you're not getting into an intense hands-on program; there's something else to software engineering being taught in Mac's accredited software eng program (even if it's taught in an unengaging manner), that isn't just an intense three years of learning programming languages.

I wish I read all the advice before applying to software engineering here. It is one of the biggest disappointments in my life and i'm only in second year.

Advice to any people applying now.. go to U of T or Waterloo.

Originally Posted by moonre

I wish I read all the advice before applying to software engineering here. It is one of the biggest disappointments in my life and i'm only in second year.

Advice to any people applying now.. go to U of T or Waterloo.

What exactly don't you like about it?

Apparently they are in the process of changing many things because several of the courses are very different compared to last year.

Before coming here I was at Waterloo for a year for accounting where I also took a comp sci elective. I never experienced upper year classes but I have to say that even first year was a totally different experience. My problems with Mcmaster also includes the student experience as a whole.

The best way I can put it is that Waterloo feels like an actual institution of higher learning(for tech at least) while Mcmaster feels like a bigger, glorified high school.

When I think about it, I cannot consider any of the resources here to be better than anything at Waterloo. They have everything we have here, and much more. A building dedicated to coop and career advancement, tech event going on constantly, they facilitate a community through several platforms and more often than not there are respectable teachers.
Regarding the non-social aspect.. yeah generally people are less social but that doesn't mean you would have no social life going there. It depends on the person you are.

Meanwhile on the other side of the coin, we have Mcmaster, where I'm constantly unimpressed by the lack of motivation of some of the professors, the lack of communication within the program and just how lacking Mcmaster really is as a whole.

Pros of being at Mcmaster so far:
- there is a hospital nearby I guess
- slightly more social crowd(?)

Pros of being at Waterloo:
- more tech events
- better buildings(ethernet ports, wow )
- more student resources
- easier to connect with companies(incomparabl e coop programs)
- overall more motivated students

Now I'm not saying I'm an amazing student by any means. I didn't stay in Waterloo because I heard that engineering at Mac was respectable and didn't really want all the stress that people complained about in Waterloo upper year.

Not worth it. We are at least 3 steps behind Waterloo as far as I'm concerned. It looks they are trying to change but my year and probably the next few years will be used as scapegoats for their attempt at overhauling the program.

Sorry if there are any repeating points or something. I don't really have time to reread this at the moment.