Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

I have a question: does anyone actually have a problem with the idea of a school phasing out programs in order to specialize in other areas? Or is this just a NIMBY type thing?

(This is genuine curiosity. I personally think that its a good idea for different schools to focus in different areas, but I haven't actually heard arguments against the idea, so I could be missing something huge).

I think the problem people have is that they're focusing on phasing out and cutting funding in one particular area. Humanities students are obviously annoyed that its their programs getting hit most heavily by this.

Just for example next year due to lack of funding we will not have History of Graphic Design (cross listed with Art History) and Graphic Design courses as part of the Multimedia program. This is is damn shame imo, and its just another blow to our faculty which apparently the University doesn't care enough about.

Well, Mac doesn't make these decisions just because they don't care about the Humanities. But it only seems natural that the smaller more specialized programs would be the ones hit first if Mac is looking to specialize in other areas.

And while it definitely sucks for the people who are already here doing those programs, it doesn't really make sense to me that almost every university in Ontario offers the same courses, it just seems redundant. Different schools specializing in different areas seems so much more efficient. And if Mac and other schools keep cutting arts stuff, it seems natural that other schools would expand their programs to meet the demand.

when mac students are ayn rand fans, you know the school is culturally backwards ; )

Originally Posted by andrew22

when mac students are ayn rand fans, you know the school is culturally backwards ; )

Curse those handsome devils!

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

I have a question: does anyone actually have a problem with the idea of a school phasing out programs in order to specialize in other areas? Or is this just a NIMBY type thing?

(This is genuine curiosity. I personally think that its a good idea for different schools to focus in different areas, but I haven't actually heard arguments against the idea, so I could be missing something huge).

Like sew12 said, students are upset because Humanities and Social Science programs, in general, are getting phased out. It's not like Art History is being phased out to bring in Nanotechnology. Lots of programs are getting phased out to provide money for other general programs (ie. Engineering or Health Science)

An easy example of this would be to look at History courses on the Master Timetable.
https://adweb.cis.mcmaster.ca /mtt/

Almost half of the History have been cancelled, 40 out of 86 classes.
Or English, where 50 out of 99 clases were cancelled.

But if you look at the Engineering timetable, only 3 out of out of 34 have been cancelled:
Or Health Science, with only 6 of 126 classes cancelled.

And it's not like the History and English enrollment numbers are dropping. It's just that their courses are being cut.

It's just annoying that McMaster keeps taking money from certain programs and faculties. I know it's not because McMaster hates Humanities and Social Science, but it's because McMaster cares more about Engineering and Health Science. Sometimes, small programs do need to be cut for funding reasons, I know that. But in my opinion, History, Communications, French, Political Science, Anthropology, etc. aren't small programs.

In summary: :(

Hey Kathy,
The master timetable isnt showing what has been cancelled, it is showing what is offered this year. The courses that are crossed out are simply not being taught this year, most are taught every second year.

I also want everyone who is concerned about this to please come to the Open Forum on the Arts occuring Thursday, Feb 11 at 3:30 in the Council Chamber (GH 111) The entire Humanities and Soc Sci SRA caucuses will be there waiting to speak with all of you.

This is from McMaster Daily News:

New opportunities for students in the Arts


February 03, 2010





The Faculty of Humanities is strengthening its commitment to the fine arts at both the undergraduate and graduate levels.

A new proposed bachelor of fine arts will allow humanities to expand its offerings in its outstanding studio art program. A new master of fine arts program would be the only graduate program in the School of the Arts and would connect with the burgeoning local arts community while enhancing its national reputation.

"In 2008-09, studio art and art history underwent undergraduate program reviews that identified their many strengths as well as areas of potential growth," said Suzanne Crosta, dean of humanities. "Since then the Faculty has spent considerable time deciding how to provide the best opportunities for students, develop programs that build on faculty expertise, and meet the resource needs of the Faculty. I believe we've found the best way forward and appreciate the commitment so many people have made to the process of developing the plan."

The new programs would see the stand-alone art history program phased out, although art history will be a central component of the bachelor of fine arts. Students will also continue to have the option to take a minor in art history and art history faculty will continue to offer courses. All students currently enrolled in art history will be offered all the necessary courses to complete their degrees over the next three years.

The new direction will permit the studio art program to expand in exciting directions, including the hiring of new faculty and additional opportunities to bring together studio artists, art historians and curators from the McMaster Museum of Art.

"McMaster's studio art program has long been among the most desired programs in the province, attracting exceptional students and producing outstanding work," says Keith Kinder, director of the School of the Arts.

"The proposed new bachelor of fine arts is a fitting acknowledgement of this high quality teaching and artistic production. The proposed master of fine arts will be a natural outgrowth of the undergraduate program providing a new breadth of opportunities for student and faculty research."
The proposal is now moving through the University's approval process. The transformation of the programs is expected to be complete in three years.

**Not saying this is the best thing or that I support it, I posted it so everyone could read it.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

Like sew12 said, students are upset because Humanities and Social Science programs, in general, are getting phased out. It's not like Art History is being phased out to bring in Nanotechnology. Lots of programs are getting phased out to provide money for other general programs (ie. Engineering or Health Science)

An easy example of this would be to look at History courses on the Master Timetable.
https://adweb.cis.mcmaster.ca /mtt/

Almost half of the History have been cancelled, 40 out of 86 classes.
Or English, where 50 out of 99 clases were cancelled.

But if you look at the Engineering timetable, only 3 out of out of 34 have been cancelled:
Or Health Science, with only 6 of 126 classes cancelled.

And it's not like the History and English enrollment numbers are dropping. It's just that their courses are being cut.

It's just annoying that McMaster keeps taking money from certain programs and faculties. I know it's not because McMaster hates Humanities and Social Science, but it's because McMaster cares more about Engineering and Health Science. Sometimes, small programs do need to be cut for funding reasons, I know that. But in my opinion, History, Communications, French, Political Science, Anthropology, etc. aren't small programs.

In summary: :(

Right, but I'm just saying that it might make sense for McMaster to eventually close all programs except, say, Health Science. And then maybe Waterloo to close everything except Engineering, and maybe York closing everything except its Humanities program. It just seems like fewer schools offering a program, but having those programs be larger is a much more efficient approach. It also allows for more upper year specialization, since if an entire school is devoted to History, its more likely that there will be enough people to feasibly run a course that wouldn't be available at a more general school.

It would start with schools offering less resources to a program, and eventually cutting it out completely. That doesn't appear to be what's actually going on in this case, but I was just trying to figure out whether that's something that a lot of people would be against in theory, or whether people are only against it when its in their own backyard, and why for both cases.

Originally Posted by finklej

Hey Kathy,
The master timetable isnt showing what has been cancelled, it is showing what is offered this year. The courses that are crossed out are simply not being taught this year, most are taught every second year.

I also want everyone who is concerned about this to please come to the Open Forum on the Arts occuring Thursday, Feb 11 at 3:30 in the Council Chamber (GH 111) The entire Humanities and Soc Sci SRA caucuses will be there waiting to speak with all of you.

It's not that those courses are not offered this year. The schedule has looked like that for almost 3 years now. The same courses are not offered over and over again. They are cancelled. :(

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

Right, but I'm just saying that it might make sense for McMaster to eventually close all programs except, say, Health Science. And then maybe Waterloo to close everything except Engineering, and maybe York closing everything except its Humanities program. It just seems like fewer schools offering a program, but having those programs be larger is a much more efficient approach. It also allows for more upper year specialization, since if an entire school is devoted to History, its more likely that there will be enough people to feasibly run a course that wouldn't be available at a more general school.

It would start with schools offering less resources to a program, and eventually cutting it out completely. That doesn't appear to be what's actually going on in this case, but I was just trying to figure out whether that's something that a lot of people would be against in theory, or whether people are only against it when its in their own backyard, and why for both cases.

I know what you're saying. But I think it's wrong to do while people are still in the program. If I'm in my final year of Political Science, I don't want to be told "By the way, you can't graduate with a Political Science degree.. pick something else". It's like a slap in the face for the 4 years I've spent getting this degree.

Yeah, I definitely agree that they shouldn't stop in the middle of someone getting the degree. By phasing it out I meant offering less and less courses, and eventually stop letting people pick it as their major, but continuing to run the courses for people who are already in it.

Yeah. Either way it sucks. I would hate to be someone who picked the History program in first year, thinking I had so many options and course choices. And now look at it.

Unfortunately, McMaster is in the business of making money. As a Humanities student, I've felt the repercussions of this since the first class I took in first year.

Since profit is Mac's number one priority, preference is going to be given to those departments/programs which generate the most revenue. Unfortunately for us, Humanities programs don't fit that bill.

I really hope they don't phase out the program. I like taking art history courses as electives.