This is a big problem in societies that wear clothing. Perhaps people should wear less clothes?

Originally Posted by Goce

This is a big problem in societies that wear clothing. Perhaps people should wear less clothes?

How about everyone who's Italian, Greek, Russian, European, French, uh... etc, all disregard this.

If you look nervous and are threatened by authority figures, but have nothing to hide, then who cares? The worst thing that could happen is that getting through security will take longer - and in the interests of protecting yourself and many others, I'd say it's a pretty small ramification.
Also, to the person who thinks that Israel's system is a mere cover-up for discrimination, maybe you're right, but I don't see why car insurance companies can charge more for people who statistically are more risky to insure, while airport security can't inspect people of nationalities with higher levels of association with terrorism. Racial profiling seems wrong to me, but if the profiling is done based on statistics, I have no problem with that... though I feel like I'm asking for trouble for saying this..

if they really want things to be safe, you should travel without luggage, have any meds given to the airport well in advance (how many pills will you really need, even for a 20 hour flight), and everyone should show up, get naked, put on jumpsuits and get on the plane. It would look like prison transport but who cares.

I would not give two shits if the airport scanned my junk.

Originally Posted by benjs

Racial profiling seems wrong to me, but if the profiling is done based on statistics, I have no problem with that... though I feel like I'm asking for trouble for saying this..

Its not here. The article shows that statistically there is no clear proof that profiling works; the headline even says "Statistically Profiling is as accurate as random sampling". Plus terrorism vs car accidents isn't a valid comparison imo, the pool of data on record for both is just 1:100,000 in ratio or even more!

Plus its not just about pure statistics, there are other subjective/social ramifications of it.

Some of them are covered here:

http://roomfordebate.blogs.n ytimes...-a-difference/

p.s: I do oddly enough like some of the ideas Israeli Airport security has, especially the Bomb Boxes which can be constructed at a cheaper cost then XRay Human Scanners etc.

Originally Posted by healthsci1

i dont really see the validity in the interview process that isreal uses. Personally i have a natural tendency of getting nervous around authority figures. Through there evaluation it would seem as if i wanted to cause harm to their people. I think their just tryng to justify racial profiling. If your arab, or have an arabic name, you will be stopped regardless of how coherent your speech. Which is why they would have stopped abdulmutalib.

You argue saying "It must be profiling", yet you make no argument against its effectiveness. (And as another member pointed out, we know racial profiling DOESN'T work) And Israel doesn't just have to worry about Palestinian terrorists but also there are small extremist israeli groups that have committed terrorism against the state and symbols thereof as they feel its not hardline enough. As well as neo-Nazis, and run of the mill nut jobs would probably be something they'd be keeping an eye out for. If we accept your logic though, our police must use profiling when they keep eyes on people looking suspicious in public places. While its not perfect, you CAN train people to look for tell-tale suspicious behaviors that are hard to cover up.

Personally I'd rather scan everybody to be safe, but I don't think the Israeli approach is without validity.

Originally Posted by healthsci1

i dont really see the validity in the interview process that isreal uses. Personally i have a natural tendency of getting nervous around authority figures. Through there evaluation it would seem as if i wanted to cause harm to their people. I think their just tryng to justify racial profiling. If your arab, or have an arabic name, you will be stopped regardless of how coherent your speech. Which is why they would have stopped abdulmutalib.

As someone who has two friends who were customs officers at border crossings and airports like Pearson international, I can tell you that they both fully agree that people get nervous around authority figures but their style of nervousness is distinctly different from someone who is guilty or hiding something, that's why those coupe questions are a valid process. They get fine tuned to sensing the difference between people who are just scared because they got pulled aside and whether they plan to smuggle something, or worst.

I see where your coming from, but the mindset of the individuals performing these acts are fueled by hatred and most are well trained. Guilt/nervousness arises from fear or the doing of a wrongful act. These individuals have a mindset that involves little to no guilt and theres lack of confusion as they have to accomplish there mission. This is why i think the examination of an individuals behavior is pointless. If they truly want to prevent these acts a full body scan and a scan of ones luggage should solve there problems.

Originally Posted by arathbon

You argue saying "It must be profiling", yet you make no argument against its effectiveness. (And as another member pointed out, we know racial profiling DOESN'T work) And Israel doesn't just have to worry about Palestinian terrorists but also there are small extremist israeli groups that have committed terrorism against the state and symbols thereof as they feel its not hardline enough. As well as neo-Nazis, and run of the mill nut jobs would probably be something they'd be keeping an eye out for. If we accept your logic though, our police must use profiling when they keep eyes on people looking suspicious in public places. While its not perfect, you CAN train people to look for tell-tale suspicious behaviors that are hard to cover up.

Personally I'd rather scan everybody to be safe, but I don't think the Israehli approach is without validity.

When did i say "it must be profiling" it was an opinion and lets be realistic here Isreal has absolutely nothing to worry about, they have a tight grip on the media and have a military that is full of technological advancements that few countries have access too. Any threat can be neutralized through the usage of there military.

Originally Posted by healthsci1

When did i say "it must be profiling" it was an opinion and lets be realistic here Isreal has absolutely nothing to worry about, they have a tight grip on the media and have a military that is full of technological advancements that few countries have access too. Any threat can be neutralized through the usage of there military.

That's a very poor assessment of the situation in Israel. Israel proper is is one of the freest nations in the middle east and is about average as far as the world is concerned. In fact with the exception of 2009 (when its press freedom fell dramatically) it ranked ahead of all other middle eastern nations and on par with many EU nations. Including Italy and France. Military technology actually doesn't help much when it comes to combatting people who are determined to do stuff like blow themselves up and crash planes. It even is limited in its effectiveness against guerilla fighters (ie. in Afghanistan). They obviously don't have the military ability to suppress terrorism as rocket attacks were able to continue during both the Lebanon and Gaza conflicts. As well suicide bombings were not reduced until a security barrier was built (A Wall in some spots, but a fence over most of its length) that prevented terrorists from sneaking past check points.

[rant] (not directing this at you but just a general observation)
I mean people sometimes have such a messed up view of Israel. I mean obviously there is room for debate on policy and the like but for example some people hear stuff like "Israeli Apartheid Week" and picture Israel as South Africa during the 80's . While there are some similarities in the Palestinian territories to the situation in Namibia, the situation in Israel proper is very different from what the situation was in South Africa proper in the 80's. There is no "petty apartheid" and Arab citizens of Israel (approximately 20% of Israel's population) have full rights. (There is even an Arab judge on the Israeli Supreme Court, two Arab Generals, and an Arab cabinet minister). While there is some racial trouble, it is certainly not radically different than some of the racial tensions in other western societies. Indeed the Israeli Supreme Court often intervenes in favor of Israeli Arabs when the government does act in a way that could be perceived as racist. (Some interesting polls have been done that show some interesting data on the topic, such as while the majority of Arab citizens have strong disagreements with certain government policies, they would prefer to live in Israel even if stays a "jewish democratic state" over the incorporation of primarily arab areas into a future independent Palestinian state, that 3/4's would prefer to live in Israel over any other country, and that both jews and arabs perceive that the other ethnic group bears them more animosity than they actually do) Anyways, that's my little rant about that whole mess

[/rant]

Something's not right here...the new high-tech scanners claim to be able to detect metallic and non-metallic threat items, but if something was metallic it'd be set off by the metal detector, and if something was non-metallic couldn't you just...hide...it?

People shove marijuana up their ass, swallow guns, piece by piece, all sorts of crazy things...and these are pretty much the only thing that couldn't be detected by less sophisticated equipment, and they still can't be detected...so why bother?

Originally Posted by Rossclot

if they really want things to be safe, you should travel without luggage, have any meds given to the airport well in advance (how many pills will you really need, even for a 20 hour flight)

In some cases diabetics need to take insulin injections as frequently as every 2 hours when awake, every 4 hours while sleeping...in such cases, how would they know it's not, say, heroin? (without either sending it to some sort of lab for analysis or shooting up)

I agree in principle, but it seems impractical in a lot of ways.

Originally Posted by arathbon

[rant] (. There is no "petty apartheid" and Arab citizens of Israel (approximately 20% of Israel's population) have full rights. (There is even an Arab judge on the Israeli Supreme Court, two Arab Generals, and an Arab cabinet minister).

[/rant]

*facepalm*
If you say so!

Originally Posted by arathbon

That's a very poor assessment of the situation in Israel. Israel proper is is one of the freest nations in the middle east and is about average as far as the world is concerned. In fact with the exception of 2009 (when its press freedom fell dramatically) it ranked ahead of all other middle eastern nations and on par with many EU nations. Including Italy and France. Military technology actually doesn't help much when it comes to combatting people who are determined to do stuff like blow themselves up and crash planes. It even is limited in its effectiveness against guerilla fighters (ie. in Afghanistan). They obviously don't have the military ability to suppress terrorism as rocket attacks were able to continue during both the Lebanon and Gaza conflicts. As well suicide bombings were not reduced until a security barrier was built (A Wall in some spots, but a fence over most of its length) that prevented terrorists from sneaking past check points.

[rant] (not directing this at you but just a general observation)
I mean people sometimes have such a messed up view of Israel. I mean obviously there is room for debate on policy and the like but for example some people hear stuff like "Israeli Apartheid Week" and picture Israel as South Africa during the 80's . While there are some similarities in the Palestinian territories to the situation in Namibia, the situation in Israel proper is very different from what the situation was in South Africa proper in the 80's. There is no "petty apartheid" and Arab citizens of Israel (approximately 20% of Israel's population) have full rights. (There is even an Arab judge on the Israeli Supreme Court, two Arab Generals, and an Arab cabinet minister). While there is some racial trouble, it is certainly not radically different than some of the racial tensions in other western societies. Indeed the Israeli Supreme Court often intervenes in favor of Israeli Arabs when the government does act in a way that could be perceived as racist. (Some interesting polls have been done that show some interesting data on the topic, such as while the majority of Arab citizens have strong disagreements with certain government policies, they would prefer to live in Israel even if stays a "jewish democratic state" over the incorporation of primarily arab areas into a future independent Palestinian state, that 3/4's would prefer to live in Israel over any other country, and that both jews and arabs perceive that the other ethnic group bears them more animosity than they actually do) Anyways, that's my little rant about that whole mess

[/rant]

suggesting that arab citizens have full rights is fallacious. Its obvious that youve been spoon fed by the media.

Heres something to think about. The nazi encouraged that the jewish people be considered as undesirable. The Nazi created ghettos, where Jews would experience horrendous conditions. Jewish children could no longer go to German schools and there businesses, homes and synagogues were vandalized.

The ironic think is that these things have been happening with the Palestinians since 1948, the Palestinians are thought of as garbage, Gaza and the West Bank are the ghettos. Here individuals have restricted access to all resources. Very few Palestinians get to go to jewish schools, practically non existent and finally there homes, businesses and mosques are being destroyed.

If no one intervenes then history will repeat itself.

Originally Posted by benjs

If you look nervous and are threatened by authority figures, but have nothing to hide, then who cares? The worst thing that could happen is that getting through security will take longer - and in the interests of protecting yourself and many others, I'd say it's a pretty small ramification.
Also, to the person who thinks that Israel's system is a mere cover-up for discrimination, maybe you're right, but I don't see why car insurance companies can charge more for people who statistically are more risky to insure, while airport security can't inspect people of nationalities with higher levels of association with terrorism. Racial profiling seems wrong to me, but if the profiling is done based on statistics, I have no problem with that... though I feel like I'm asking for trouble for saying this..

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with anything you said, but to further your point: car insurance companies charge men more because they are more likely to get in accidents.
(I assume you were referring to how people in accidents pay more. I'm saying men in general pay more)

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

*facepalm*
If you say so!

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with my statement or do not know what I meant by Petty Apartheid as opposed to Grand Apartheid.

By petty apartheid I mean the system where there is official racial discrimination against Arabs living in Israel. There IS discrimination in Israel proper but its not spelt out as "Arabs do not have rights xyz". For example a lot of the benefits from the state are based on being a veteran or not. While not technically discriminatory, it disproportionally benefits Jews, and Druze who are required to serve over Israeli Arabs who are not. Also the Jewish National Fund, set up prior to the existence of Israel, owns large amounts of land that was purchased for Jewish settlement. There is a great deal of dispute over whether this agency can be forced by the courts to lease land to Arabs, however, if I recall the court cases are leaning towards imposing non-discrimination on that private but quasi-governmental agency.

suggesting that arab citizens have full rights is fallacious. Its obvious that youve been spoon fed by the media.

I've actually read opinions on all sides and have drawn my own conclusions. But its interesting that rather than addressing the argument (i.e. demonstrating where Israeli Arab's do not have the same legal rights as other Israeli citizens) you simply attack me suggesting that because I do not agree with you, I obviously have done little reading on the subject.

Heres something to think about. The nazi encouraged that the jewish people be considered as undesirable. The Nazi created ghettos, where Jews would experience horrendous conditions. Jewish children could no longer go to German schools and there businesses, homes and synagogues were vandalized.

The ironic think is that these things have been happening with the Palestinians since 1948, the Palestinians are thought of as garbage, Gaza and the West Bank are the ghettos. Here individuals have restricted access to all resources. Very few Palestinians get to go to jewish schools, practically non existent and finally there homes, businesses and mosques are being destroyed.

That's not really an accurate description of Gaza and the West Bank. They have never been the legal territory of Israel and by international law have been designated to become the Palestinian state. (both the surrounding Arab states and Israel have prevented this, although progress has been made slowly over the past 20 years) Israel should not be building settlements in these territories and this is probably where the apartheid comparison is valid. This is similar to the situation during apartheid in the former German South-West Africa which was administered in trust by South Africa. South Africa took some areas for white settlement and split the rest off as Bantustans. This is comparable in some ways to how some have characterized the camp david proposal as (although it might be worthwhile to note that Arafat did not attempt to negotiate, and there have been claims by some involved that the Israeli's were willing to give up far more than their initial proposal) it would have created effectively 4 separate areas (as opposed to the 2 that would be left by legitimate international imposed solution).

Where this falls apart however is when we move to Israel's internationally recognized territory. Unlike South Africa, the Israeli's have not separated out the Arab areas of Israel proper to become quasi-independent states, and it has not stripped Arab residents of their citizenship en-masse. The segregation in Israel proper (where it does exist) is almost entirely non-legally sanctioned, and is similar to the segregation seen in, for example, Paris, where parts of the city are almost entirely North African, and are effectively segregated because naturally kids go to school where they live (except in the US where they tried busing kids across town to remedy this problem). The other factor that creates segregation in Israeli schools is that, as an officially bilingual state, Arabs have the right to be educated in Arab language schools, if they choose. There have been many Arab activists in fact clamoring not for integrated schools, but for more Arab cultural education and autonomy in Arabic schools in Israel.

I will not argue that there are not Israelis that believe the Arabs are dirt etc., because there are such individuals. A lot of them are motivated by fear that the Arabs are a "fifth column" that would betray them in a war. However, despite this, within Israel (and in contrast to the Palestinian territories), Arab's are citizens, are represented in the Israeli government (and are not denied the right to vote or segregated into "junior" houses as was done under apartheid in South Africa) and have legal recourse to defend their rights. While there are problems, the apartheid comparison simply does not hold up to Israel within the 1948 borders.

Probably the most upsetting thing about the whole conflict is the failure of the international community to enforce the original solution. After the international community partitioned the mandate of Palestine, it did nothing to protect the territory of Israel, Palestine and the International Zone. Indeed many problems date from this failure. Israel, while certainly not ecstatic about the size of the 1948 state (or the even smaller one proposed in the 1930's) accepted this, especially since Jews would be in the clear majority in the territory to become Israel, and because Jerusalem, including the most sacred Jewish sites, would be under internationally control and Israeli's would have access to it. (This is despite the fact that this proposal would allow the palestinian state to expel the many jews living there). The Arab states however invaded, and started a war which lead to Israel taking a larger area in order to preserve its viability as a State. (People often to not realize how small Israel is, and the proposed state in 1948 was very difficult to defend against military invasion), and also lead to the annexation of the remaining arab areas by the surrounding arab states who then proceeded to deny Palestinian self government while themselves preaching the end of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state. This also lead to the holiest sites in Judaism being closed to Jew's, a reason why Israel is very adamant about maintaining control of East Jerusalem. While certainly I do not condone everything that has happened since then, the fact of the matter is, that many of the sticking points in the peace negotiations (the refugee problem, control of east jerusalem, Israel's insecurity about its strategic depth (although this has become less important than before the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan)) date back to a failure of the international community to enforce the original settlement.