I don't get it. If the TAs aren't good and don't help the students like they're supposed to, why do they want a raise? I am genuinely perplexed. I'm sorry to the very few undergrad TAs who actually know what they're doing, but when 3/4 of the TAs that I have suck, and the one that doesn't suck is in grad school, I don't understand why the undergrad TAs should get a raise, and even more stupid, go on a strike. We would fare fine without the TAs and how in the world would the quality of our education go up if we paid the TAs more? I'm not seeing much sense there.

Originally Posted by smiles

I don't get it. If the TAs aren't good and don't help the students like they're supposed to, why do they want a raise? I am genuinely perplexed. I'm sorry to the very few undergrad TAs who actually know what they're doing, but when 3/4 of the TAs that I have suck, and the one that doesn't suck is in grad school, I don't understand why the undergrad TAs should get a raise, and even more stupid, go on a strike. We would fare fine without the TAs and how in the world would the quality of our education go up if we paid the TAs more? I'm not seeing much sense there.

It's because they have a union and that's how unions work.

Originally Posted by DannyV

It's because they have a union and that's how unions work.

Well then, unions suck.

Originally Posted by smiles

Well then, unions suck.

That's an understatement.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I'd better leave this thread before it does affect how I TA.

Boycott your TAs if they're so worthless, and not worth your tuition. I mean, if they're so shit and useless, then if they go on strike there's no loss, so this whole discussion is a moot point.

The loss is that TA's, and correct me I'm wrong about this, are responsible for marking assignments/reports/labs/etc. Remove the TA's, and that "30% mark for your final report" now become a part of your final test marks. Some people may like that idea, whereas others may not. I personally feel, depending on the course, that this may be a bad thing. The assignments give you a footing on a concept, and give you a bit of space to make a mistake and learn. If you get something wrong, you possibly won't be losing a large percentage of your mark, and can better prepare yourself for the test in the scenario that the material shows up again.

So really; the argument is that TA's may be worthless at teaching, but they are still essential for students outside of the tutorial/classroom. You go on strike, we suffer all the more.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I think people under-estimate how difficult it is to be a good teacher. I honestly think if you selected TAs based on (teaching) merit, you'd still have a large population of bad TAs, because some may lack the expertise in the given field (ie. a great teacher, but not good at say, microeconomics or whatever). It's a balancing act...and I think there aren't enough skilled people to go around.

I for one, feel that your statement raises a point, but still doesn't provide a good enough reason. Yes, teaching is a skill, and it isn't essentially something that can be taught. In most cases, it probably comes down to whether or not you have the skill. However, if we look at the other end of the table, we have (in my opinion) too many TA's who are completely incapable of teaching, despite having the grades on their transcript.

But just because there aren't enough people to filled these roles, doesn't mean we should just accept the fact that people suck and that they should fill the positions we just happen to pay for. You have a right to make your opinion be known, especially when the reason happens to come right out of your pocket.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Fair enough, but it's my understanding that at least 4/5ths of your courses were engineering weren't they? You guys aren't given too many elective slots. The remaining ones were likely concentrated in another area, both suggesting you got a poor sampling of TAs. (Not because you got 'bad TAs' but rather because you didn't experience a diverse array of TAs...nobody really does)

How is this a feasible argument? A bad sampling of TA's is still a bad sampling of TA's. It's not as if we just happen to get a bad pick of the draw, getting only the horrible choices for TA's. Rather, it'd be more appropriate to say that in light of the fact that the majority of the TA's one gets in engineering are typically bad, it further justifies the fact that the number of good TA's are easily out numbered by the bad.

Furthermore, you mentioned how Engineering Tutorials typically tend to have fewer attendees. The correlation is that engineers, who have so little time (I myself - a 2nd year mech undergrad - am at school 8:30am-8:00/9:00 pm every day of the week for multiple reasons; all related to school), it is better for us to not waste our time learning nothing in a tutorial. And I make no jabs at other faculties, I have no idea of their workload; this is simply a perspective on my own faculty. As such, learning the material covered on our own is much more efficient in most cases. We're not all just skipping for the sake of being hooligans, so please don't associate a negative image with us.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Actually I disagree...I think a TA is supposed to be the link between the students and the professor: the TA is supposed to be like your 'friend' or go-to person if you're having any trouble. Namely, a TA is supposed to be more personable than a professor, more down-to-earth.

Maybe I'm over-dramatic, but I was a bit sad when I had to deduct marks because someone made silly errors, or misinterpreted the questions, etc. I want all my students to get 12's...I know it won't happen, but I'll bend over backward to help them get as close as they can.

This I agree with; the fact that the TA is more interpersonal is a definite benefit between student and TA

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Ok, here's something I can respond to. When I run a tutorial, I have no clue what students are struggling with...more often than not, they're struggling with something I found very easy, and the stuff I expected them to have trouble with, they found easy. It seems simple in theory to survey the class and just 'know everything in advance' but it's unbelievably difficult in practice...even a really basic concept, if unexpected, is a struggle to explain. Everything's different when you're at the front of the room, right?

Unless of course you're running your tutorials in a 'lecture style' with little to no student involvement...then you should pretty much rehearse your entire tutorial beforehand...but then, that wouldn't be a good TA either.

Once again, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. A TA cannot be expected to know where the students are struggling, nor are they expected to be mind readers. As such, it should be up to the students to clarify where they are struggling, so that the TA can further help them.

However, if we turn over the chessboard (+1 to umineko quotes haha), perhaps DannyV was speaking more about the fact that certain TA's simply cannot teach?

Just wanted to chime in with something, being a former undergrad and current grad/TA of Mac.

1) Undergrads have every right to be mad at CUPE. But CUPE does not necessarily mean TAs in general. A large portion of the graduate TA's hate CUPE 3906 with a burning fire, and would not be in this union if we weren't forced into it. In fact, of all the graduate students I know, I can't think of any that have even the slightest faint praise for CUPE. We DO NOT SUPPORT A STRIKE and will come out to vote down any strike vote that CUPE tries to force down our throats.

2) I was a grad student in 2006 during the last round of negotiations, and the same thing will happen in 2009. They'll get a strike mandate (done already), and when McMaster presents their final offer to the TAs, the TAs will accept the offer despite CUPE sending us 3 e-mails a day telling us to reject it. My dad was a grad student here, and he said the exact same thing happened back in the late 70's so it's not exactly without precedent. CUPE exec's main goal is not for us, it is to justify their own jobs. If Mac offered us a fair contract and CUPE just took it, instead of rejecting it (regardless of the content of the offer), then the exec looks useless. They only put up a fight so they can look useful, and continue to justify the need for a useless union. They don't actually care what's on the table unless they can either yell about it or pat themselves on the back for getting it.

3) If we go on strike, even for 1 week, we probably lose out. Most TA's are paid for 10 hours per week. In one week of striking, we lose out on (10 hours of pay) x (~$35/hour) = ~$350. If they are fighting for $1 an hour pay increase, that's 350 hours until we break even. Strike for 2 weeks and it's almost guaranteed that any 2-year Masters student will never break-even.

4) There is no doubt that I've had some bad TAs in my time as an undergrad. But I think it is unfair for a student to demand the world from TA's too. In classes I've TA'd, I've offered to: read over papers to give advice *before* it is marked so they can learn/make improvements, help any student with assignment problems, make templates for reports so they don't have to worry about formatting, and have unlimited office hours. Yet after all of this, I get about 2 or 3 students taking me up on my offer to help, and about 10 who fail the assignment/paper because they didn't bother to ask for help (even if it is a simple one word answer, they don't ask!). We are here to help, but we are not here to give you the answer and walk away!

Finally, in the event of a strike, I will double my TA'ing efforts (for free of course) in an attempt just to piss off CUPE. And I hope I'm not alone.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

With all due respect, you are an engineer...upwards of half of the undergrad engineers don't even attend their tutorials, so why would you expect a graduate engineer to give half a crap about running them? That's a pretty bad sampling of the TA population.


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In all honesty, I'm a bit tired of all this TA bashing too. No, I'm not going to do less work or show less passion for the work, but it does make me wonder why I bother, a little bit. Seriously, are all undergrads as ungrateful as you guys?

-If not, then you might want to ask yourselves if there's a problem with that...
-If so, then why do I bother? Honestly, give me a reason why TAs dealing with a bunch of students with your attitudes should care in the slightest whether you succeed or fail.


And in either case...you should ask yourself if you can, and would do better.

That's not fair. Just because some students don't go to tutorial doesn't mean the TA has a right to slack off. I pay my tuition and I go to every single tutorial and I do all my work. It's not my fault if some students don't go to class. I shouldn't have to suffer for their choices. A TA should teach the exact same way they would if there was 20 students or 1 student, and they should teach the exact same way if most of the tutorial only shows up for the tutorial before the exam.

I agree with another poster that TAs should have a trial period of some sort. My boyfriend became a TA after one interview where the interviewer only talked about his marks. He doesn't have ANY teaching experience, he doesn't want to go into teaching, and he was a really bad TA at first (I forced him to talk to his friends going into teacher's college for some tips so his tutorial wouldn't suffer so badly, and he's better now).
Plus, the grading we do for the TA at the end of the semester is pointless. I had a TA in second year who was HORRIBLE, and the whole class was talking about how badly they were grading her when it came time to do the scantrons. Sure enough, I had the same TA the following year, and she was just as bad as before. I don't think anyone reads or tells the TAs what's written on our marking sheets. And if they do, there's nothing in place to make sure the TA makes any improvements.

Originally Posted by AYuen

Just wanted to chime in with something, being a former undergrad and current grad/TA of Mac.

1) Undergrads have every right to be mad at CUPE. But CUPE does not necessarily mean TAs in general. A large portion of the graduate TA's hate CUPE 3906 with a burning fire, and would not be in this union if we weren't forced into it. In fact, of all the graduate students I know, I can't think of any that have even the slightest faint praise for CUPE. We DO NOT SUPPORT A STRIKE and will come out to vote down any strike vote that CUPE tries to force down our throats.

I'm not quite hip to the workings of CUPE, but didn't they already get a strike mandate? Why would the TAs vote for this if what you said is true?

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

I'm not quite hip to the workings of CUPE, but didn't they already get a strike mandate? Why would the TAs vote for this if what you said is true?

The strike mandate simply means that the members of the union give the bargaining team the power to tell the university that we are willing to go on strike. However, last time, the university put forth a package directly to the members for us to vote on after they got their strike mandate. The actual strike mandate voter turnout is usually quite low, and it's usually only the pro unionists that go out and vote because the anti-unionists (and apathetic) know that ultimately that vote doesn't do anything. CUPE then sent out many e-mails saying 'the university can do better' and 'vote NO' on a daily basis. Eventually, we voted for 'yes', i.e. take the offer and avoid the strike. CUPE exec was disappointed.

Thanks for explaining it to me!

I have a question.

How is that it McMaster was able to come to a decision with the non-academic staff (CAW) and avoid a strike with them, but they're having such a hard time with the TAs and RAs (CUPE)?

Is it because McMaster is being unfair to CUPE? Or is CUPE asking for too much?

To be honest, I think its just a difference in the timing, McMaster was negotiating with the CAW first since CUPE had agreed to postpone any sort of strike until late October. Now they're negotiating more with CUPE as that date approaches.

Count me in as being sick and tired of all of the CUPE shenanigans. Every time they speak it's "Rah rah rah we're being opressed by the employer. In solidarity!"

I TA a mandatory final year course in my department, and I'll volunteer my services as a TA without hesitation if CUPE strikes.

Do TAs ever have the option of voting out the union and switching to another one?

I know at other places there is this option when employees are dissatisfied.

It might depend if another Union decides they'd be a better fit though and tries to get in. Hmmm.

If the TAs are so unhappy with CUPE and their bs though they shouldn't have to be part of that union.

Originally Posted by sew12

Do TAs ever have the option of voting out the union and switching to another one?

I know at other places there is this option when employees are dissatisfied.

It might depend if another Union decides they'd be a better fit though and tries to get in. Hmmm.

If the TAs are so unhappy with CUPE and their bs though they shouldn't have to be part of that union.

This is why we need right-to-work legislation. Nobody should be forced to join an organization they don't believe in. A union should not be an impedence to someone working wherever they want to work.