Originally Posted by deadpool

Said perspective: why are my tuition fees being jacked up so that another of my peers can benefit off it?

If people can't live on a TA's salary, let them do what everyone else does. Work multiple jobs.

I completely agree. There are some people who HAVE to be TAs (like Masters students in Pol Sci).
But there are so many TAs who do it just for a part time job.

In second year, I worked full time in the summer with a part time job, and during the year I worked 2 part time jobs. If I didn't like the pay at those jobs, my only option was quitting.

Originally Posted by dsahota

That's certainly the way we're trying to portray things, but we should work harder to get that message out. We'd rather not strike over any issue, but rather get it solved at the table. Betting paid for ours worked is one of our main priorities of this bargaining.



There certainly are always people who are much worse off. CUPE 3906 is actually a social justice union, so we do have a political action committee which works within the community to advocate and support the struggles of other workers for better working conditions.

But the fact there are people who are worse off, is not a reason to stop trying to find solutions to the problems that TAs have brought up. The issues we've raised have been brought up by our membership and we've put forward what we think are reasonable solutions to address these problems. The goal now is to sit down at the table with the University Administration and find a way that works for both sides to address the problems.

The fact that other universities pay TAs more isn't enough reason to strike either.

I would be so grateful to Mac if I was a TA. I don't think people see how good they have it here..

I call BS on the point that wages should be increased to reflect tuition increases because how are the wage increases going to be paid? By raising tuition.

And thus: Tuition Increase -> TA Wage Increase -> Tuition Increase -> TA Wage Increase ->.... See what's happening here? Tuition is increasing and nobody wins (except TA's are being compensated for the tuition increases that they are partially responsible for). Meanwhile tuition is increasing for no reason.

Originally Posted by scott000

Meanwhile tuition is increasing for no reason.

Technically, tuition also goes up because of inflation.

Originally Posted by PTGregD

Technically, tuition also goes up because of inflation.

That and increasing research and operational funding for "Certain" faculties despite the pressures of recession!

I clearly see no "major" corelation between increasing pay for TA's who are 4.2% of an 18 Million dollar budget= $756,000(correct me if there is any error in this!) and the tuition! Obviously everything thing is intrinsically linked to tuition increases and agreeing to pay them more will put a larger amount of pressure on the University to increase tuition given the possibility of deficiet next year, but its not THAT big a factor! Heck two of the Gazillion Vice Presidents McMaster have combined will earn more then $756,000(Once again correct me if I'm wrong; I vaguely remember a freedom of information request+article from the Spec which had figures around this ballpark!)

How about that new engineering building?

Originally Posted by deadpool

Mowicz:

You fail to consider the biggest benefit of a TA job. It has an intrinsic value that is far greater than any part-time job I have.

I might make marginally more money in a year, but that doesn't help me get ahead academically, which is my primary goal. I do not get reference letters from profs, and it does not get to go on applications to grad schools.

The intrinsic value is relative...and again, I think you're generalizing a bit unfairly. In some cases, the TA's intrinsic value is greater than the funding. Here are some points regarding my personal situation and, though it's certainly not proving otherwise, it shows that the value of a TA-ship over another job is not always as clear cut as you're making it...infact for myself, I saw the (undergrad) TA I had as a hinderance to my academic career (because of the time commitment), not a boost.

I got my reference letters from my professors because I took the initiative to go hound them during their office hours, asking questions that went above and beyond the course material (at least the three professors I asked for them...none of which was my TA-supervisor)...not because of my TA-ship. Infact, in my program (Mathematics), I don't see how TAing would help you get references anyway, at least not as solid as other ones you could get in other ways. It's an inquisitive nature that will help in that respect.

Is putting the fact that I'm a TA on applications going to help me discover the next big math theorem? Well no, it's certainly not going to help me get any funding, besides the TA itself. NSERC, OGS, etc. base themselves primarily on academic merit in the form of research / research potential.

Nobody TAs for the money, yet this strike threat is predicated on that entire fact.

I do not want a TA who is in it for the money because they tend to do a pretty lackluster job.

Think about it though...does it matter whether someone's heart is in it for the money, or academic merit? Personal gain is personal gain, no matter how you slice it. I've seen some really crappy med-school bound students who do really half-assed volunteering duties at hospitals, EFRT, etc. because all they care about is souping up their application. If you ask me, I'd prefer not to be treated / given first aid by such students, but the fact of the matter is, I don't have a choice.

What you ought to express is that you want a TA who is passionate about the work...regardless of how they get their compensation.

Personally, I am in it for the money...and what I mean by that is, I wouldn't be TAing if I didn't get paid. Of course that's not all I think of when I say, run a tutorial, but it is an important issue to me, and I think many TAs would agree with me. As I expressed above, I really don't benefit from it in an academic sense...but I do know I'd have a lot of trouble paying for my education if I didn't have this TA job.

In other words, I'm not really a TA to get rich...I just want to have that financial security for the time being. The TA-ship offers me enough to pay my tuition and that's sufficient for me to be honest. (with exception of course to the whole 'others around me getting paid more' analogy I made in my last post)

Originally Posted by michelle

How about that new engineering building?

It's an excellent teaching tool and a hub for sustainability and public policy.


I also wanted to point out, and I think it's been said before, that TA salaries do seem very high in comparison to others, but you DO NOT WORK AS MANY HOURS!

Which leaves you plenty of time to get a minimum wage paying job like the rest of students.

Originally Posted by DavidR

Which leaves you plenty of time to get a minimum wage paying job like the rest of students.

We have one, it's called academics. :p


Seriously though, I'm in my office 9-5 or later, almost every day (with the exception of classes/tutorials etc.) doing research or just trying to wrap my head around stuff...even on some weekends. When would you expect me to work another job?


If I had to work a 2nd job because my TAship wasn't paying me enough, do you actually believe I'd make TAing a priority? Get real. You guys are making a self-fulfilling prophecy.

EDIT: And what I mean by that is:

Pay (already crappy) TAs less. =>
TAs do even less. =>
Pay (even crappier) TAs even less. =>
...

Originally Posted by DavidR

Which leaves you plenty of time to get a minimum wage paying job like the rest of students.

Graduate student TAs are expected to be on campus full time for their academics and many work (but aren't paid in hourly wages, but instead compensated by scholarship / bursaries) in labs or are doing research for upwards of 60-80 hours / week. The expectation to be always working on research persists throughout the summer, as grad school is an all year commitment.

I'm pretty sure most undergraduate TAs already have a second job or also work throughout the summer as the amount from their TA isn't enough to cover tuition.

And I'd just like to echo what Mowicz said, having TAs who are able to dedicate their energy to teaching and education is what we all want. Having TAs split between multiple jobs as well as academics would end up with things even worse for undergraduate students.

dsahota, if you have access to any of this data, could you please post it? I'm really curious about it now...

Are there any figures about the breakdown of:
-Who was eligible to vote in a strike vote?
-What percentage of these people voted?
-What percentage of members are graduate and which percentage are undergraduate?

Originally Posted by DavidR

Which leaves you plenty of time to get a minimum wage paying job like the rest of students.

Repost from earlier:

I'm not sure how graduate studies are in social sciences/humanities; however, for people doing their M.Sc. everyone works at least 8 hours/day (I've spent 12 hours a few times depending on the experiment) and they also do research at home for defenses/comprehensive exams. Add to that courses any T.A. work/prep. Many graduate students also conduct experiments on weekends. I was a summer student and I spent 48 hours a week in the lab minimum, all of the masters students spent much more time than I did.

Unless they never sleep or if they decide to slack on their research/courses, it would be very difficult to work multiple jobs.

Plus, if they're completely exhausted, it can lead to incredibly dangerous accidents in the lab. :\

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

dsahota, if you have access to any of this data, could you please post it? I'm really curious about it now...

Are there any figures about the breakdown of:
-Who was eligible to vote in a strike vote?
-What percentage of these people voted?
-What percentage of members are graduate and which percentage are undergraduate?

Sorry I saw this question earlier and forgot to respond.

Number of eligible voters: ~2500
Percentage of members voting: around 25%, (don't have the exact numbers on me, but it was actually quite high for a University Local)
Membership breakdown: ~30% undergraduate, ~70% graduate.

The numbers on membership fluctuate because a lot of departments aren't great at tracking the number of TAs they employ and forwarding the information on to us. The uncertainty in number of members is probably +- 200, and the uncertainty in the percentages of members grad / undergrad is +-5%.

Originally Posted by dsahota

Sorry I saw this question earlier and forgot to respond.

Number of eligible voters: ~2500
Percentage of members voting: around 25%, (don't have the exact numbers on me, but it was actually quite high for a University Local)
Membership breakdown: ~30% undergraduate, ~70% graduate.

The numbers on membership fluctuate because a lot of departments aren't great at tracking the number of TAs they employ and forwarding the information on to us. The uncertainty in number of members is probably +- 200, and the uncertainty in the percentages of members grad / undergrad is +-5%.

Thanks a lot!

I have a few more questions, if you don't mind.
-Were the only people who voted undergraduate or graduate TAs? Or was voting open to all members of CUPE 3906?
-Where was voting held, and for how long was it open?
-What percentage of CUPE 3906 is undergraduates, graduates, and others?