I agree; I've had just one undergrad T.A for Geography 1HA3 and he was a pretty decent guy and a pretty decent tutor! Especially for a course that was ridiculously structured and annoyingly complex compared to all other tutorials since it had different assignments every single week! At the same time I've also had inspiring Grad T.A's and Grad T.A's who just sit around demotivated by the class and I can't stand being in those Tutorials! We can have Good/Bad T.A's whether they are undergrads or grads; their knowledge and specialization only becomes an issue if a) They are clearly not well versed on the subject matter, even for a first year class for example or b) If for an upper year class somehow they were awarded the job while not having an interest or research background on the matter!

Originally Posted by lawleypop

It irritates me when you make generalities like that.

I don't think the way I do because I'm in commerce. I would have these same opinions if I went into engineering (which was my original plan) or math (which was plan C). I'm not applying any commerce concepts I've learned so far. But that's probably b/c I haven't really learned any.

.

I have to because I am also in a discipline(Sociology) that makes generalizations as its bread and butter(YES I do find some way to plug my majors into everything I do unfortunately! ) The Generalization here would be that people with certain mindset and personalities choose a certain major for a certain reason(And yes there are ample amounts of psychological studies on this subject; its not a random theory). I never even considered applying to Commerce even though that industry was and most probably is still my future career plan; because I wanted academic and intellectual freedom given to me by Socsci. For the same reason Rohan left commerce because he never felt at home! I essentially would never have been able to think like and operate a Commerce student; As you can clearly see I have wayyy to many questions/rationalizations of everything!

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

I have to because I am also in a discipline(Sociology) that makes generalizations as its bread and butter(YES I do find some way to plug my majors into everything I do unfortunately! ) The Generalization here would be that people with certain mindset and personalities choose a certain major for a certain reason(And yes there are ample amounts of psychological studies on this subject; its not a random theory). I never even considered applying to Commerce even though that industry was and most probably is still my future career plan; because I wanted academic and intellectual freedom given to me by Socsci. For the same reason Rohan left commerce because he never felt at home! I essentially would never have been able to think like and operate a Commerce student; As you can clearly see I have wayyy to many questions/rationalizations of everything!

I went into it for the money.

Not because I think like a Commerce person, not because I like it. Because I want a shit load of money.

And it's about the only way I can think of to work for Lamborghini (aside from designing cars).

"I essentially would never have been able to think like and operate a Commerce student;"

You can force yourself to do anything. =P

Originally Posted by lawleypop

And by "real shitty job" I meant an actual shitty job. Not a real job. Being a TA is a real job, I just don't think it's nearly as shitty as it's being made out to be. Bad wording on my part.
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I don't know. I guess this is the problem with being represented by a union. I don't think my job is shitty at all. For the most part, I have a great time doing it. Of course, there are always a few students who don't listen or are just plain *******s, but otherwise it's usually good.

That's why I say that it's too bad that you haven't had an good experiences. Having a good TA can really make or break a class, which is why I try my best to make my class material relatable to everyone, even those who don't want to take any followup classes.

Personally, I think the university and the union should focus on is some sort of recourse for people who take advantage of their position. There's nothing worse than knowing that one of your peers has an advantage in a class just because they happened to be assigned to a different section. More responsibility needs to be taken when choosing TAs.

My program (until this year) had no graduate option, so for the most part, our TAs worked their butts off to get their jobs. I suppose that could be why I've had better experiences.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I went into it for the money.

Not because I think like a Commerce person, not because I like it. Because I want a shit load of money.

And it's about the only way I can think of to work for Lamborghini (aside from designing cars).

Exactly! That is one of the variables into those studies/generalizations; Generalizations are never perfect but they are kind of accurate! For me exploring academic questions and research and getting "educated"(I have a long and weird definition for that) is more important then spending silly amounts of time scratching my head over an accounts balance sheet and learning how to hustle maddd amount of money in marketing! Obviously who doesn't like money; But I'm happy to wait for it and be the "best" at whatever I end up doing! I guess that's why I'm in Socsci and you are in Commerce? Makes sense?

Striking so students can get better educations... Talk about counterproductive.

Let's do some math.

Let's say someone makes $x per hour.

In a full time work week, this person makes at least $40x

In a work year, this person makes $40x * 52 = $2080x

Let's be reasonable. Let's assume that thanks to a lot of factors, incl vacation etc a person makes $2000x in a year.

Think about how much freaking money TAs make. Undergrad or not. I'm sorry but uhh... that's ridiculous. This is the problem I have with unions. They drive up our wage points so high that there is no money left in an economy to adequately budget for proper things.

McMaster is currently spending a ton of money on ridiculous wages on TAs when the actual value of the job is pure intrinsic benefit because those with the words "TEACHING ASSISTANT" on their resume do inherently better when applying to grad schools, whether for a Masters, or a Ph.D.

Personally, I want undergrad TAs. I don't want bullshit Grad Students who are in Grad School due to their lack of ability to find jobs. I'm not mincing words. I am in 5th year and have FAR too many friends with lackluster grades who got into Grad School simply because Mac wanted more money from students who KIND OF proved themselves with their 7 averages.

Bullshit.

I want quality. I do not want some Union coming and trying to pull wool over my eyes by claiming that their ways are the best. See, I'm a middle-class, underappreciated student. My degree means nothing, and I have to now deal with the fact that some stupid Union has decided that the people who lead my tutorials desire more money per hour than I might ever make?

Bullshit.

Why are we as students taking this crap. I know enough TAs, and have known enough TAs in my time who never once thought about their payment. They did the job for the intrinsic value of if.

Who is CUPE to suddenly dictate the terms?

Bullshit.

I am a student of McMaster, one of 19,000 who wants you to shut up, and get off my campus without affecting my education in the least.

Originally Posted by deadpool

Let's do some math.

Let's say someone makes $x per hour.

In a full time work week, this person makes at least $40x

In a work year, this person makes $40x * 52 = $2080x

Let's be reasonable. Let's assume that thanks to a lot of factors, incl vacation etc a person makes $2000x in a year.

There-in lies the flaw of your calculation.

I make $40 an hour ($38.60 I believe, but I haven't received a paycheque yet).

I work about 10 hours a week for strictly TAing purposes. I get paid for 3-4 of those hours, that's about $120-$160 per week...certainly not 40*40 = $1600 per week.

If I made 2080 * $40 = $83200 a year, I would have no incentive whatsoever to graduate...I'd be a full-time TA for the rest of my life. No, unfortunately I make a maximum of $7600, even if I work more than the allotted hours. No ifs ands or buts, no fancy math calculations that's it: $7600 (or less).


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To Cheri: You've met me (kind of!) and I feel as though I work my butt off as a TA. I make it a higher priority than my own studies often times, because I love to see students succeed. (: I would hope I don't fit your description of a bad TA, that would depress me a little bit, haha...I put a lot of energy into it.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

These people aren't worth as much as they think they are. Fire them, hire someone who'll do the job and who'll do it happily, and who won't cause a ruckus. They don't have it NEARLY as bad as they think they do.

I worked at Walmart this summer. So did a chemical engineer who got laid off. Spoke perfect english, and is probably just as qualified as any of these undergrads. If he worked at walmart with no complaint for 10 dollars an hour, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to take on the hardships that comes with being a TA.

Let me try to do some damage control here...I'm siding with the TAs because, naturally, I have to right? I'm a TA, it directly affects me...

But it's not really fair to say CUPE is anti-student simply because students side with the university. I don't think it's fair to use students as leverage in either case, be it by striking and putting pressure on the university, or conversely, the prospect of hurting students keeping some TAs from striking. It fails to present the issue in an accurate manner.

But the union does directly represent the TAs, not the students. Why should the union fail to do a good job for the TAs, because another completely unrelated population may suffer? Like it or not students, CUPE is doing what's best for the people it stands for. I don't completely agree with its methods (ie. using students as leverage) but I do agree with its motives.



And now back to Cheri's quoted text: The problem however, is that I wasn't 'hired' as a McMaster TA. I signed a contract which guaranteed I would receive financial aid, in exchange for providing teaching services to undergraduate students. McMaster cannot legally 'fire' me, no matter how terrible a TA I am (although if I'm bad, next year they may not offer me such a contract). So in some sense, we're looking at this backwards:

TAing is not a conventional job (at least not for graduate students). It's a service we provide, which allows McMaster to give us financial aid...it's more of a stipend than payment. That's how it's stated in our contracts.

And by "real shitty job" I meant an actual shitty job. Not a real job. Being a TA is a real job, I just don't think it's nearly as shitty as it's being made out to be. Bad wording on my part.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think TAing is a bad job at all. I love the job, and as I mentioned above, I put a lot of effort into my tutorials and office hours. In another topic (I believe) I said that I have to do lots and lots of homework problems, on short notice, and much faster than the students, just to ensure that I know how to answer any questions they may have.

I'm not complaining, I love the work. I know there are shitty jobs out there, and I'm thankful that I've never had to work in a bread factory or a steel mill in very loud, or dangerous, or hot conditions. I personally wouldn't mind if I was paid a bit less, as far as I'm concerned my TAing just pays for my tuition anyway, and I actually enjoy the work.

But what I would mind, is if other TAs around me made more than I did, for putting in (possibly) less work. Think about it, even though say, $20 per hour isn't really bad, it would be if everyone else made 35. This is my mindset, and why, even though I'm opposed to a strike, I am supporting CUPE's motives...because that's exactly what it is:

An 8% increase in (graduate) tuition this year, means I make that much less money since, naturally, it goes to tuition.

This means the TAs from last year made more than I did, for the same, or potentially less, work. This feels to me, much like I'm surrounded by TAs who make more than I do, and might not even work as hard.


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EDIT: Oh and to Taunton:

I have to picket in the event of a strike...it's in my contract. ):

Couple of points:

Most graduate TAs currently are employed for at most 260 hours / academic year. Most undergraduate TAs are employed for probably around 80-100 hours on average. For graduate TAs, it is possible to ask for a request from graduate studies to work a 3rd term of TA so that would take you up to potentially 390 hours, but its very rare. So absolutely no TA is making anywhere near 2000 x wage rate.

The entire McMaster budget for salaries is about $430 million dollars (April 2009, consolidated budget):
http://unit2jobcuts.files.wo rdpres...y_13_20091.pdf

The TA contract is worth a total of $18 million dollars (divided amongst ~2700 TAs) or about 4.2% of the salary budget at McMaster. That works out to an average of $6667 / TA. TAs certainly aren't getting rich, if anything our compensation just covers our tuition costs with a little left over to put towards some living expenses. There are expenses that are pushing up the McMaster budget, but the TA contract certainly isn't one of the contributors to that.

The wages for TAs at McMaster are within the same ballpark as unionized and non-unionized Universities. Its certainly not the case that we've driven the wages of TAs way up beyond the industry average or have caused some huge perturbation to the equilibrium. Rather its true that graduate TAs are paid within the average per hour, and undergraduate TAs are paid below the average per hour. The general range of compensation amounts (20's to high 30's per hour) has been recognized across the sector as being reasonable for the work that is being done.

The proposals we have on the table are what came forth from our membership. Our membership, through surveys, consultations and voting on the proposals package, directed the bargaining team towards the issues that needed to be tackled.

Please also remember that the vast majority of our 2700 TAs are also students and members of this University community. We don't want to strike and we'd much rather find a deal through dialogue at the bargaining table.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

There-in lies the flaw of your calculation.

I make $40 an hour ($38.60 I believe, but I haven't received a paycheque yet).

I work about 10 hours a week for strictly TAing purposes. I get paid for 3-4 of those hours, that's about $120-$160 per week...certainly not 40*40 = $1600 per week.

If I made 2080 * $40 = $83200 a year, I would have no incentive whatsoever to graduate...I'd be a full-time TA for the rest of my life. No, unfortunately I make a maximum of $7600, even if I work more than the allotted hours. No ifs ands or buts, no fancy math calculations that's it: $7600 (or less).


---------------------------

To Cheri: You've met me (kind of!) and I feel as though I work my butt off as a TA. I make it a higher priority than my own studies often times, because I love to see students succeed. (: I would hope I don't fit your description of a bad TA, that would depress me a little bit, haha...I put a lot of energy into it.



Let me try to do some damage control here...I'm siding with the TAs because, naturally, I have to right? I'm a TA, it directly affects me...

But it's not really fair to say CUPE is anti-student simply because students side with the university. I don't think it's fair to use students as leverage in either case, be it by striking and putting pressure on the university, or conversely, the prospect of hurting students keeping some TAs from striking. It fails to present the issue in an accurate manner.

But the union does directly represent the TAs, not the students. Why should the union fail to do a good job for the TAs, because another completely unrelated population may suffer? Like it or not students, CUPE is doing what's best for the people it stands for. I don't completely agree with its methods (ie. using students as leverage) but I do agree with its motives.



And now back to Cheri's quoted text: The problem however, is that I wasn't 'hired' as a McMaster TA. I signed a contract which guaranteed I would receive financial aid, in exchange for providing teaching services to undergraduate students. McMaster cannot legally 'fire' me, no matter how terrible a TA I am (although if I'm bad, next year they may not offer me such a contract). So in some sense, we're looking at this backwards:

TAing is not a conventional job (at least not for graduate students). It's a service we provide, which allows McMaster to give us financial aid...it's more of a stipend than payment. That's how it's stated in our contracts.



Don't get me wrong, I don't think TAing is a bad job at all. I love the job, and as I mentioned above, I put a lot of effort into my tutorials and office hours. In another topic (I believe) I said that I have to do lots and lots of homework problems, on short notice, and much faster than the students, just to ensure that I know how to answer any questions they may have.

I'm not complaining, I love the work. I know there are shitty jobs out there, and I'm thankful that I've never had to work in a bread factory or a steel mill in very loud, or dangerous, or hot conditions. I personally wouldn't mind if I was paid a bit less, as far as I'm concerned my TAing just pays for my tuition anyway, and I actually enjoy the work.

But what I would mind, is if other TAs around me made more than I did, for putting in (possibly) less work. Think about it, even though say, $20 per hour isn't really bad, it would be if everyone else made 35. This is my mindset, and why, even though I'm opposed to a strike, I am supporting CUPE's motives...because that's exactly what it is:

An 8% increase in (graduate) tuition this year, means I make that much less money since, naturally, it goes to tuition.

This means the TAs from last year made more than I did, for the same, or potentially less, work. This feels to me, much like I'm surrounded by TAs who make more than I do, and might not even work as hard.


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EDIT: Oh and to Taunton:

I have to picket in the event of a strike...it's in my contract. ):

Literally 20 minutes after I closed my laptop to return to studying, I said to myself, "Mowicz doesn't fall under that category" b/c I remembered that thread you made asking for suggestions on how to be a better T.A. Unfortunately, I procrastinated enough and decided I should probably finish reading a chapter before I came back to the internets.

But, yea. Knowing that every TA I've had so far is getting paid approx 20 dollars an hour kinda just punched me in the balls because I've NEVER had a good T.A. Whether or not it actually works out to 20 dollars an hour is kinda irrelevant [to me] because I've never had a TA that actually put in a quantifiable amount of work! They were just there. And useless.

Not that I know how much work actually goes into TAing, I'm just basing my opinion on what I don't see TAs doing. But I worked at Walmart all summer for 10.95 an hour (would have been 9.95 if it wasnt the midnight shift) and I probably worked a shit load harder than any TA ever has. I put up with a LOT of shit from management and it was (surprisingly) physically demanding.

I would LOVE to be a TA. It sounds ideal. >_<

I think what irritates me the most is CUPA using students as leverage. I will never believe that TAs are striking in order to improve the present and future quality of education provided at Mac. It's just a method to try and get people to side with the cause.

Everything is always about money. :O

Uhh, no. I'm not flawed in my thinking.

I am giving the wages a point of reference. Comparable wages means that we do it in a way that everyone's wages are calculated at a certain point.

I make $12/hour... at 10 hours a week. But I do quite a bit more than 10 hours week. Last year I made $10.75/hour for 8 hours a week and worked about 15-20 hours a week. Big deal. The fact of that matter is, what I got paid for pales in comparison with TAs.

Fact of the matter is, you make a shitload more than me, and grad students make 3 times more than me... and this is why we have a 21% student unemployment rate.

But that's not my point. My point again is, when we raise the wage of undergrad TAs it means less jobs for Undergrad TAs.

I am giving the wages a point of reference. Comparable wages means that we do it in a way that everyone's wages are calculated at a certain point.

I'd like to challenge this, since naturally, the concept of comparing wages is not a well-defined concept...ie. it's not something that two different people need agree on, given they may have different (equally valid) opinions on how to do it.

You seem to be saying that we look at some sort of theoretical maximum that we can achieve, 2080 times the hourly rate...except that I believe this is flawed since there is absolutely no chance a TA will ever work this much, and a TA's maximum is 200 times the hourly rate (barring special circumstances), while someone doing a regular job may infact make this much.

In my opinion the best way to calculate and compare wages is to look across three categories:

1) Hourly wage
2) Weekly wage
3) Annual wage

Clearly TAs make a lot in the hourly wage category (although my 38 really is more like 19, given that I probably put in 2 or even 3 hours of work for every hour of pay). When you look at the other two however, it's easy to see the discrepancy.

I make $12/hour... at 10 hours a week. But I do quite a bit more than 10 hours week. Last year I made $10.75/hour for 8 hours a week and worked about 15-20 hours a week. Big deal. The fact of that matter is, what I got paid for pales in comparison with TAs.

Actually, 12 per hour times 10 hours is 120, which is like 3 TA hours...which is the same I get per week (approximately). So again, we go back to our three categories:

1) Hourly? Yes, I get more.
2) Weekly? We get about the same.
3) Annually? Well, assuming your 12/hour at 10hours/week is consistent throughout the year, you make a fair bit more than I do since mine is not.

(I've assumed the amount of work stays consistent throughout. In reality, TAs work more than 3 hours during say, exams, and a large fraction of my hours are designated ONLY for exams...the same goes for your job, I'm sure there are hectic times where you work more, but without knowing the specifics I can't do a more accurate calculation).

Hopefully now you can see why I thought your reasoning was flawed.

Fact of the matter is, you make a shitload more than me, and grad students make 3 times more than me... and this is why we have a 21% student unemployment rate.

Come again? I don't see how those two things are linked.

But that's not my point. My point again is, when we raise the wage of undergrad TAs it means less jobs for Undergrad TAs.

This isn't necessarily true either...sure, if we fix the amount of money allocated to TAing then more money per person = less people.

But given that the demand for TAs stays the same, ie. the same number of people, if anything, more money per person = more money allocated to TAing. I think that's moreso what's being pitched.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I think what irritates me the most is CUPA using students as leverage. I will never believe that TAs are striking in order to improve the present and future quality of education provided at Mac. It's just a method to try and get people to side with the cause.

Everything is always about money. :O

I agree completely, the strike is definitely not to benefit the students in any way...and it feels to me like anyone who says otherwise is flat out lying. But that's not CUPE's job right? The strike would be purely in the interest of TAs (even though it may hinder them in the process). Just like how if a bank goes on strike, it's in the bankers' interests, not the people popping in to make their withdrawals.

Sometimes TAs need a little lovin too. xD


EDIT: And to be honest, I've crunched some numbers and I'm pretty sure if we strike I will make less money than if we don't strike...even if Mac raises our pay by something outrageous, like 2 dollars. The change in wage won't compensate for the lost hours.

I did want to make one other note:

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

their knowledge and specialization only becomes an issue if a) They are clearly not well versed on the subject matter, even for a first year class for example or b) If for an upper year class somehow they were awarded the job while not having an interest or research background on the matter!

I was specifically assigned to my course because I've taken courses for which it was particularly relevant. (Specifically, it's vector calculus, and I've taken a lot of Geometry courses, which extend the notions of vector calculus)

I think the organization of TAs, though it may vary from faculty to faculty, is more involved than it may seem.

EDIT: Dammit sorry...I hit quote instead of edit, two times in a row. Forgive me, I'm exhausted. xD If a mod could merge these 3 posts, that'd be awesome.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I did want to make one other note:



I was specifically assigned to my course because I've taken courses for which it was particularly relevant. (Specifically, it's vector calculus, and I've taken a lot of Geometry courses, which extend the notions of vector calculus)

I think the organization of TAs, though it may vary from faculty to faculty, is more involved than it may seem.

EDIT: Dammit sorry...I hit quote instead of edit, two times in a row. Forgive me, I'm exhausted. xD If a mod could merge these 3 posts, that'd be awesome.

I was just giving an hypothetical example! Like she mentioned a concern about Undergraduate T.A's being not so good. I was just saying that Undergrad T.A's should be okay and as competent as Grad T.A's(who are apparently supposed to be more qualified on paper) except under so and so situations; but these hypothetical situations are only possible I guess if the Faculty doesn't properly hire a qualified T.A or goes for the cheaper undergrads vs more expensive Grad for upper year courses. But I was talking in terms of Social Science; where the subject matter is much more concentrated and like in Sociology for example we have a full year course where all we study is deviance!