Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

That's actually the same reason I decided not to go into teaching. Obviously not the sole reason, but it was one of the biggest factors.

Me too. I had the option of TAing a Geo class this year and I couldn't do it because the union was already talking about striking. I didn't want to be part of that.
My bf is a TA and he hates that they want to strike. If they do, he won't picket (even though he has bills to pay).

But with the amount of money he has saved up (which is a lot because he gets paid way more than he deserves!), he doesn't have to worry too much about paying the bills - as long as the strike isn't TOO long.

If you think our quality of education will improve because of your strike, you are VERY VERY mistaken. If you're for the students, how about a vote regarding this strike? If you actually cared about the students, that's what you'd do. Administration isn't losing out by this. The students are.

Yay more propaganda about what the Administration refused to do. No mention of the Union refusing to accept the offer though. Everything is the employers fault.

It's been a good 2 weeks since there was any union stirring up drama though, so I guess it was about due.

Random question Rohan! Soo I was reading the Sil Today and it said that the T.A's want $28.55 onwards while the university is giving them $20.53 while at the same time they are offering Grads(who are paid $36 right now) to $37.40. Doesn't that still leave a difference of $10? Orr Am I missing something? How is their pay going to be "normalized"?

Also secondly this is for everyone: According to the Sil Diagram Mac Undergraduate T.A's were sort of the lowest-ish(It didn't have all Canadian Universities in there; which is sketchy) on the list of 8 Universities as far as yearly pay goes by a decent margin :S

McMaster is proud of the "We are part of the world 100 and Western and Queens aren't" notion but if our T.A's are being paid less then random places like Guelph, Carleton, Windsor, Ottawa, Ryerson, York then there clearly is a bit of an issue.

Hence isn't it time the University upgrades their pay to a more market equitable rate?

Plus I know rankings are a pretty random and not to be taken "that" seriously thing but it is concerning that Mac fell from 117 to 143! :S

Being a student I'm obviously against strike and that is "supposed" to turn me against the Union if I am a "rational" person; but If I were to take a layman's view of the Diagram and the article it looks sort of unfair towards the Union at first glance. First they are paid less then the market then the University is offering them 8$ less then what they demand. But then again being an Economics and Left leaning Sociology major; which is quite possibly the worst combination in this context; I am torn between cynicism towards the Union as Capitalist biased Economics "teaches" me too and the Soft spot towards Unions In Sociology!

p.s: Good "Let's cut the BS" Post!

They want to get almost $30 an hour ??

HOLY SH*T

Sorry for my language. But oh my god .............

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Also secondly this is for everyone: According to the Sil Diagram Mac Undergraduate T.A's were sort of the lowest-ish(It didn't have all Canadian Universities in there; which is sketchy) on the list of 8 Universities as far as yearly pay goes by a decent margin :S

Here's the criteria used for the Sil diagram:

When we compare to other universities its important we explain our criteria for the comparison. McMaster, with 20,000+ undergraduate and 3000+ graduate students is considered a research intensive mid-sized university. In making our comparison graph there were three main criteria for inclusion into the graph:

0) In Ontario (provinces fund universities so it only makes sense to compare within a province)
1) At least mid-sized universities (15,000+ undergradutes)
2) Research Intensive (>1000 graduate students)
3) Unionized workforce (CUPE Locals)

The 8 universities in the graph are the only 8 fitting those criteria (to the best of my knowledge).

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Random question Rohan! Soo I was reading the Sil Today and it said that the T.A's want $28.55 onwards while the university is giving them $20.53 while at the same time they are offering Grads(who are paid $36 right now) to $37.40. Doesn't that still leave a difference of $10? Orr Am I missing something? How is their pay going to be "normalized"?

Also secondly this is for everyone: According to the Sil Diagram Mac Undergraduate T.A's were sort of the lowest-ish(It didn't have all Canadian Universities in there; which is sketchy) on the list of 8 Universities as far as yearly pay goes by a decent margin :S

McMaster is proud of the "We are part of the world 100 and Western and Queens aren't" notion but if our T.A's are being paid less then random places like Guelph, Carleton, Windsor, Ottawa, Ryerson, York then there clearly is a bit of an issue.

Hence isn't it time the University upgrades their pay to a more market equitable rate?

Plus I know rankings are a pretty random and not to be taken "that" seriously thing but it is concerning that Mac fell from 117 to 143! :S

Being a student I'm obviously against strike and that is "supposed" to turn me against the Union if I am a "rational" person; but If I were to take a layman's view of the Diagram and the article it looks sort of unfair towards the Union at first glance. First they are paid less then the market then the University is offering them 8$ less then what they demand. But then again being an Economics and Left leaning Sociology major; which is quite possibly the worst combination in this context; I am torn between cynicism towards the Union as Capitalist biased Economics "teaches" me too and the Soft spot towards Unions In Sociology!

p.s: Good "Let's cut the BS" Post!

WHOA WHOA WHOA.

20 bucks an hour?

Are you ****ing kidding me?

UNDERGRADS ARE MAKING THIS? What the hell's the problem? Jesus, if they don't like the pay, give it to any other ****ing jobless person who would be more than happy to have it.

Undergrads are getting paid more than my mom. Are you really ****ing serious? They're unhappy with this? ****ing selfish is what it is.

Also, disregard this post if that's not what you meant.

Also, I highly doubt that this strike is going on "to improve the quality of education at McMaster." They're a union. They don't give a shit about the people who are actually going to be affected by a strike. This is for personal gain, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by dsahota

The 8 universities in the graph are the only 8 fitting those criteria (to the best of my knowledge).

So there are non unionized staff at other universities doing the same job, and they still survive? Sounds like a union (and all that goes with it *cough*strike*cough*) isn't all that necessary.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

WHOA WHOA WHOA.

20 bucks an hour?

Are you ****ing kidding me?

UNDERGRADS ARE MAKING THIS? What the hell's the problem? Jesus, if they don't like the pay, give it to any other ****ing jobless person who would be more than happy to have it.

Undergrads are getting paid more than my mom. Are you really ****ing serious? They're unhappy with this? ****ing selfish is what it is.

Also, disregard this post if that's not what you meant.

I was just asking random questions and thinking out loud! But as an Economics student I don't really care what they are making and their status as undergrads and how $20 is massively more then the Minimum wage I currently work at! It these variables don't really matter in certain contexts!

What matters is the question: Is the wage they are being paid equitable to the market wage For T.A's at similar sized and ranked Universities in Ontario? As Economics says Specialized workers get paid higher wages; hence while you may be surprised at $20 and how it is a "decent" amount if other Universities are paying more on average then for this "sector" of the industry it is sort of unfair! But thats just me trying to rationalize it as an Economics student! Mr Sahota what is your comment on that?

I mean for example associate lawyers bill like $300 an hour and still complain if the partner who apparently does less grunt work but has a more specialized knowledge can bill upto $800 an hour! It's the same argument on a smaller level!

Originally Posted by reeves

So there are non unionized staff at other universities doing the same job, and they still survive? Sounds like a union (and all that goes with it *cough*strike*cough*) isn't all that necessary.

Yes there certainly are non-unionized TAs in Ontario. A couple of examples are the University of Waterloo and Queen's University. Generally speaking, TAs at these universities have lower rates of pay, less access to benefits and more problems with over-work. I have several friends who are TAs in engineering at U Waterloo and they often talk about how they've been forced to work up to double the hours they're getting paid for. As they have no representative to advocate for fair treatment, these TAs typically have little recourse and just tend to suck it up and take it, at a significant cost to their own academic careers. Unions often come into existence because a group of employees realizes they're getting treated really poorly by their employer and they want to work together to improve things. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see a movement towards unionization at U of Waterloo in the next few years.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

I was just asking random questions and thinking out loud! But as an Economics student I don't really care what they are making and their status as undergrads and how $20 is massively more then the Minimum wage I currently work at! It these variables don't really matter in certain contexts!

What matters is the question: Is the wage they are being paid equitable to the market wage For T.A's at similar sized and ranked Universities in Ontario? As Economics says Specialized workers get paid higher wages; hence while you may be surprised at $20 and how it is a "decent" amount if other Universities are paying more on average then for this "sector" of the industry it is sort of unfair! But thats just me trying to rationalize it as an Economics student! Mr Sahota what is your comment on that?

I mean for example associate lawyers bill like $300 an hour and still complain if the partner who apparently does less grunt work but has a more specialized knowledge can bill upto $800 an hour! It's the same argument on a smaller level!

I personally don't care what the market average.

1) Every TA I've had is useless. Specialized my ass. They don't do anything (from my experiences). Anyone can put a scantron into a machine and update marks on Elm. And hold office hours for 4 hours a week.

2) No one's holding a gun to their head and making them work for 20 dollars an hour. They're unhappy with that? Imagine if they actually had to get real shitty jobs like the rest of us that pay minimum wage.

People are whining and bitching over nothing and overvaluating their worth. Trust me, there is always someone more qualified than you who's willing to do the same work for cheaper. Undergrad TAs are not worth 20-30 dollars an hour.

Also, sorry if you're actually a good TA. I just haven't met you yet. =p

Originally Posted by huzaifa47;99603
What matters is the question: Is the wage they are being paid equitable to the market wage [B

For T.A's[/b] at similar sized and ranked Universities in Ontario? As Economics says Specialized workers get paid higher wages; hence while you may be surprised at $20 and how it is a "decent" amount if other Universities are paying more on average then for this "sector" of the industry it is sort of unfair! But thats just me trying to rationalize it as an Economics student! Mr Sahota what is your comment on that?

For undergraduates, the McMaster wage rate is definitely amongst the lowest and well below average (even below some non-unionized universities). This certainly is one of our reasons for asking for a wage increase for undergraduate students to try and get them more in line with sector.

For graduates, the McMaster wage is within the middle of the pack, which is why we've proposed to freeze the wage rate for graduate TAs. The bigger issue we see for graduate TAs is that they're being compensated for the least hours of work and we know they're working over those hours. This is why we've proposed an increase in the standard graduate TAship from 130 hours / term to 140 hours / term.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I personally don't care what the market average.

.

There-In lies the divide and beef between Commerce and Pure Economics Students! Anddd the crux of alot of things wrong with the Capitalist system today! I'm actually happy you said that for some wierd reason But yeah you obviously are entitled to your opinion; even if it throws out of the window every principle and law I stand for as an economic major :(

That's a pretty generalized statement to make.

I guess you've never taken a class that requires essay writing? Who do you think marks those?

I know that I am very good at my job. I also know that there are shitty TAs out there.

And while we're on the topic of wages, consider how we are paid. By the semester. No matter how many hours we work. I'm supposed to work 10 hours a week, and if I go over that, I'm SOL. So in reality, I don't make $20/hour. As for getting a "real" job? I have 2 of those on top of being a TA. Clearly my being "overpaid" is still not quite cutting it.

I can sympathize with you about having shitty TAs. It happens. Unfortunately, with a lot of programs, a TA position is guaranteed to a grad student, whether they are good teachers or not. That's why I think that undergrad TAs are better, because they actually have to interview for their positions.

It's just a bad situation overall. It's making the TAs look bad, and it's making the union look bad. I'm just hoping that they just get it sorted out so people stop spazzing.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

There-In lies the divide and beef between Commerce and Pure Economics Students! Anddd the crux of alot of things wrong with the Capitalist system today! I'm actually happy you said that for some wierd reason But yeah you obviously are entitled to your opinion; even if it throws out of the window every principle and law I stand for as an economic major :(

It irritates me when you make generalities like that.

I don't think the way I do because I'm in commerce. I would have these same opinions if I went into engineering (which was my original plan) or math (which was plan C). I'm not applying any commerce concepts I've learned so far. But that's probably b/c I haven't really learned any.

Anyways.

These people aren't worth as much as they think they are. Fire them, hire someone who'll do the job and who'll do it happily, and who won't cause a ruckus. They don't have it NEARLY as bad as they think they do.

I worked at Walmart this summer. So did a chemical engineer who got laid off. Spoke perfect english, and is probably just as qualified as any of these undergrads. If he worked at walmart with no complaint for 10 dollars an hour, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to take on the hardships that comes with being a TA.

That's a pretty generalized statement to make.

I guess you've never taken a class that requires essay writing? Who do you think marks those?

Hence why I said sorry to those who are actually a good TA.

I took first year Anthro and Psych (b/c I had to >_<) and the TAs were the worst TAs I've had so far in my university life. The one for Psych was just dumber than a brick and couldn't answer a single question about anything, and the one for Anthro was a stoner and we would LITERALLY just sit there the entire class.

And by "real shitty job" I meant an actual shitty job. Not a real job. Being a TA is a real job, I just don't think it's nearly as shitty as it's being made out to be. Bad wording on my part.