Originally Posted by sew12

Seriously what a crock calling xenophobia on this. You're either a troll just trying to stir up controversy or you've got a seriously warped world view. Why come to Canada if you don't intend on learning the language? Do you have a real answer for this or are you just too offended by our alleged "xenophobia."

Swing and a miss.

It's hard to learn a new language.

It's hard to move countries and learn a new culture.

My issue is with the implication and broad generalization that immigrants that can't speak english or french yet, are not even trying. That they are lazy. That they're being "rude".

Sure it might be inconvenient to you. You know how inconvenient it is for them?

How do you know they're not trying to learn?

Whats being expressed in this thread is such a dangerously simplistic view on these issues.

And pardon me, I didn't realize that a "social practice" like waiting in line was a Canadian thing (I'm pretty sure people line up all over the world) or that "customs of civility" don't exist in other countries.

And yes, I'm a guy, and yes, I'm Indian-Canadian.

And no, I'm not going to blame that on you being white, hell I didn't even think of that. Nice try though.

Oh, and please don't tell me to "get over myself" just because I don't share your idea of how immigrants or Canadians should act.

20 years is plenty time to learn a language.

I hope you're really not trying to deny that there are immigrants out there who refuse to learn one of the 2 languages.

And if you think this thread is full of sweeping generalities, then I urge you to view some other threads because I think this is one of the threads with the least amount of generalities in them.

Just as a note, no one said it was easy to do either of the things you mentioned.

I've already said I applaud all immigrants to try to learn 1 of the 2 languages and immerse themselves in our culture. The other 3 "liked" the post, so let's assume they agree with the statement.

Let's also note that there's a huge difference between trying (and if they struggle, at least they're trying! A+ to them! Let's help them out, etc) and WILLFULLY REFUSING FOR YOUR ENTIRE STAY IN CANADA to learn our culture.

No one said it would only take 2 weeks to learn our culture. It might take 5 years, obviously it's a learning process. But to not try at all is the true crime.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Let's also note that there's a huge difference between trying (and if they struggle, at least they're trying! A+ to them! Let's help them out, etc) and WILLFULLY REFUSING FOR YOUR ENTIRE STAY IN CANADA to learn our culture.

No one said it would only take 2 weeks to learn our culture. It might take 5 years, obviously it's a learning process. But to not try at all is the true crime.

Can you tell me of someone who you know that willfully refused to learn "Canadian culture" (whatever it is)?

Originally Posted by samtheman89

Can you tell me of someone who you know that willfully refused to learn "Canadian culture" (whatever it is)?

Any immigrants who don't speak a word of english/french despite living here for a sufficient amount of time?

Even as sew12 pointed out, when she's trying to do her job and communicate with them in english and they yell punjabi in the phone and refuse to communicate with her in english.

Originally Posted by samtheman89

Swing and a miss.

It's hard to learn a new language.

It's hard to move countries and learn a new culture.

My issue is with the implication and broad generalization that immigrants that can't speak english or french yet, are not even trying. That they are lazy. That they're being "rude".

Sure it might be inconvenient to you. You know how inconvenient it is for them?

How do you know they're not trying to learn?

Whats being expressed in this thread is such a dangerously simplistic view on these issues.

And pardon me, I didn't realize that a "social practice" like waiting in line was a Canadian thing (I'm pretty sure people line up all over the world) or that "customs of civility" don't exist in other countries.

And yes, I'm a guy, and yes, I'm Indian-Canadian.

And no, I'm not going to blame that on you being white, hell I didn't even think of that. Nice try though.

Oh, and please don't tell me to "get over myself" just because I don't share your idea of how immigrants or Canadians should act.

We clearly excused immigrants who are older and young children, I guess perhaps we should have included brand-new immigrants too. Clearly the biggest pet peeve here is with people who have been here for a long time and NEVER bother to learn the language and people made that clear.

You blew this out of proportion by calling people xenophobic and prejudiced. You could have countered without making ridiculous accusations.

You call the views in here dangerous but imo calling people xenophobic is a dangerous practice. Nazis were xenophobic, racists, homophobes etc are xenophobic. People who are annoyed that some immigrants don't bother to learn English and they expect to be catered to are not xenophobic, we're not afraid of them nor do we hate them. We're annoyed by one of their many choices in life.

As for the waiting in line thing yeah I didn't get that comment either. The original pet peeves regarding people who don't line up for the Go Bus weren't directed at immigrants but just at any students who don't line up, specifically the ones going to SQ1 and Brampton.

Would you call a fellow Indian-Canadian who agrees with us xenophobic too?

SOMEONE SAID:
“I don't think it's unreasonable for Canadians to want to be able to communicate with other Canadians. I can't communicate with immigrants who REFUSE to learn either of the nation's languages.
I applaud all immigrants who spend time trying to learn one of our nation's languages. Seriously, good for them.
But when you come to this country and you REFUSE to learn a language for 20 years then uh.
Yea, I say wtf to that. But it's not prejudice.”

That’s basically the point I was making. Here, I’ll explain it a little bit more since I think some people misread my post.
I was using the line up thing as an example because I was thinking about Go buses when I was writing it (since I talked about them a minute before) and it was the first thing that came to mind. It had nothing to do with civility. When I mean customs, I mean many things. I used the Go bus as an example of something that might not be an common place in other parts of the world. I’ll give another to clarify;
Another example (though it is more extreme) is driving on the right side of the road. Honesty, don’t you think that if you are going to come and live in Canada that you should drive on the right side (and not the left, like in England)? Of course, lining up or whatever is not a life or death situation, but I’m trying to show it’s about understanding where you are and recognizing that you have to make adjustments. To show the reverse, it’s a custom in some parts of Asia to leave a little bit of food on your plate, no matter how good the meal. Not do so is very rude. An immigrant to that part of Asia should respect this custom and follow it. People who immigrate and then live their whole lives ignoring this or other customs are the people I am talking.

And, If I was xenophobic, I’d be saying I hate immigrants and that we are swamped with them and that they are taking over, etc. As I said, it’s about respect, not about where the person came from. If I was planning to move to Germany or India or something, I’d try to learn what language I would be speaking there.
And if I was xenophobic, why would I still be living in Mississauga? It’s probably one of the most culturally diverse areas in Canada.

I hate it when people automatically call any comment against immigrants xenophobia. Get over it. Immigrants cannot always be excused by “we’re new” or that “moving to a new place it hard.” I’m not saying that those are not valid reasons, but after x years in Canada, it’s old. If they want to live here, than they are going to be treated like everyone else. That means I am allowed to complain about them as much as any other group I feel like complaining about and not be pigeon-holed into “the white people hate us” group. Am I “male-phobic” when I complain about how men tend to be paid more? Am I “science-phobic’ when I say I hate doing stoic calculations?
And to cover all my basis, I didn’t talk about Brampton because I’ve never commuted from there, so I don’t know. I DIDN’T WANT TO MAKE GENERALIZATIONS ON THINGS WHERE I DO NOT HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

And I was not referring to people who have recently landed and cannot speak well, I’m talking about people who out right refuse to even try. People who will only talk to people who speak the same language or stay entirely within their ethnic community who make no attempt to even become a part of the rest of Canadian society and then expect (to steal an example) to speak of someone who speak Punjab when they go to Walmart. Those are the people I am talking about. I think a lot of the heat of this broad stems from people not recognizing that I am not talking about all immigrants, but a select few.


((Sorry for the odd fonts, I type on Word in case my computer crashes halfway through - it's prone to that, especially with long posts.))

Well I dunno learning a new language is HARD! Especially if your family at home doesn't speak that language! I still know people from my background(Pakistani) who still prefer to speak Urdu and hang out together speaking that language. They DO speak English but they prefer to stick to their language as much as possible. It is completely a cultural thing; I agree that everyone who considers themselves part of this country should definitely learn English because of professional reasons. But you can force them to give up their culture and start living the "Canadian way", because essentially you have to ask yourself: What Is the Canadian way? If it is "implied" that the Canadian way is the way of the old white majority then I think its unfair to ask other people to follow that!

Secondly I am highly incompetent at French despite my frequent attempts, I speak and write English pretty decently because I was lucky enough to have my Education in English since I was like 3 years old! Though my accent still bothers me! :(

As a random example my rep camping trip pretty much consisted of people drinking for several hours a day. That is not my culture and I would not be following my religious values if I force myself to drink in order to follow the "Canadian way". Its quite simply ridiculous to expect people to dress & act a certain way but imo completely alright to expect them to learn English.


I mean I have a weird perspective of this whole issue even though I came to Canada in 2008(hence only 1.2 years here). My internalized norms and values go against alot of the events and behavior in the so called "Canadian culture" but I still have had a much much easier transition then the usual Family class immigrants because I don't come from the "exact" same socioeconomic background(hard concept to explain) as the other Pakistani Immigrants(There is a major difference; but a hard concept to explain) and went to a highschool with a liberal and "westernized" culture hence I have an equally hard time adapting to the culture of immigrants from my country in Canada. Another wierd thing I've noticed is that according to the barbed wire sociological theory, the immigrants here have actually galvanized their cultural values in this foreign environment so much so that the culture here is actually stronger/more radical at times then the one back home(where they are obviously the majority).

But having said that, I still Queue and/or try to follow basic rules of etiquette(Though I disagree with whoever said that these are the salient features of a superior Canadian culture, its not as simple as that) because thats what I did back home as well, but I guess I was always a bit different? I mean my driving instructor actually told me to run past a traffic signal because no one was there(I dunno how many of you guys know but in Pakistan following traffic signals is optional for around 30% of the people on the road)! :S Alot of it has to do with how people have internalized norms and values! You can't expect them to behave differently if they don't see a better example around them!

Hence I disagree with posting by MDCL linking them to Savages; Its not psychological moral defect that makes them ignore queues and run in like a mob. Its something they have grown up seeing around them and hence have to follow without even realizing it!

I don't think MDCL meant to imply that immigrants are savages. I think he meant all people who don't line up for the bus are savages. It came off that way though.

I don't agree that they're savages but I agree that everyone who pushes and shoves is annoying, immigrant, Canadian or otherwise.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Well I dunno learning a new language is HARD! Especially if your family at home doesn't speak that language! I still know people from my background(Pakistani) who still prefer to speak Urdu and hang out together speaking that language. They DO speak English but they prefer to stick to their language as much as possible. It is completely a cultural thing; I agree that everyone who considers themselves part of this country should definitely learn English because of professional reasons. But you can force them to give up their culture and start living the "Canadian way", because essentially you have to ask yourself: What Is the Canadian way? If it is "implied" that the Canadian way is the way of the old white majority then I think its unfair to ask other people to follow that!

I like this.



And although it can be annoying, it doesn't drastically effect you if if you run into someone that can't speak proper english. It may be frustrating, but no need to get your panties in a bunch. Just for an example my father has been in this country for 15+ years and knows very little english. My parents both escaped terrible conditions from vietnam and came to this country with nothing but the clothing on their backs and the 4 kids they had with them. my mother learned english and my father worked over 12 hours a day every day of the week every day of the month to be able to afford one small 1 bedroom apartment to fit 6 people. a lot of times the conditions for those certain immigrants are horrid and they have to work manual labour jobs without any real breaks just to survive. he is now in his later 60s and retired and making only 600 a month from retirement. his life has been nothing but hard work.
before you make snap judgments, just remember you don't know what their story is.

Originally Posted by TTHX

And although it can be annoying, it doesn't drastically effect you if if you run into someone that can't speak proper english.

It effects me when I'm at work and people come in or call or I call them (b/c they are a customer) and they do not speak English yet want/need/expect help. I cannot help someone if they don't speak English and yelling "Pubjabi" repeatedly into the phone does effect me. I cannot do my job if the person on the other end doesn't speak English. So yes it does affect people who work in the service industry and are unable to do their jobs (help customers) when customers do not speak English.

I'm sure your father doesn't expect people to cater to him and help him if he doesn't speak English. You brought up an important point about your mother speaking English though.

It helps if at least one person in the group/family speaks English. Those customers are excellent to deal with. They all come in together for the services offered and have the one who speaks English talk to the receptionist or whoever and then they translate to other family members. Sometimes its the kids, sometimes its the parents etc. If the older people or younger people or newer immigrants in the family don't speak English fine, but at least bring someone with you who can get you the service you require.

It's frustrating not being able to help a customer because of a language barrier.

I still don't think some people get the complaint though. We're talking people who've been in the country many years and refuse to learn the language even though they can AND they expect to be catered in their own language.

Okay, so, I hate it when people sit at the end of rows in lecture and don't move out of the way...

just saying.

Originally Posted by Flag

Okay, so, I hate it when people sit at the end of rows in lecture and don't move out of the way...

just saying.

I sit at the end, but I always make sure that people can get by easily.

It frustrates me to no end when I get stuck between people who want to stay and chat or take 10 minutes to put a binder into a bag if I need to get to another class or a meeting.

Yes end row sitters are annoying if they aren't very accommodating to people coming in.

The people who stick around and chat in the aisle after class are annoying too. You're like standing there waiting and waiting and trying to give them a minute to collect their things and then they just never move. It's like hello, this is a big campus, go chat somewhere not in a classroom aisle.

i really hate it when people leave their garbage all over the place in lecture rooms

People sticking their gum to the underside of the little tiny desks. When you grab it to fold it out... eww...