Originally Posted by REPLEKIA/.

Since people are getting off on "Why does it matter that he was a doctor? that doesn't necessarily make him a better person." I'd like to toss in my 2 cents

I don't believe the importance of him being a doctor for this story lies in the possibility of him being a better person for being a doctor, but rather it is because of the implications of him being a doctor.

Doctors are people who routinely work in isolated settings with vulnerable and trusting people. If a doctor were a rapist, obviously that would put his patients at risk. The doctor could easily violate a woman, and use her health problems as blackmail material. ex: "tell the police and I'll cut off your meds". To illustrate a point, imagine there is a possible child molester, would you be more worried if the suspect was a random homeless man, or a kindergarten teacher? Obviously you would be more concerned if the kindergarten teacher was the child molester since the kindergarten teacher routinely works with children.

I totally get that, and I agree. That's what makes this whole thing a big news story to everyone.

But that's not the point being argued at the moment. It's whether you should trust a doctor any more or less in a social/non-professional situation. Should we expect doctors to behave any better? well..no...I would hope the every human being acts with respect and kindness towards others. I also trust construction workers to build a house that won't collapse on me, and my accountant to take care of my money. The doesn't change how they may behave outside of a professional setting. Hence why I'm saying that them being doctors, in the context of what's being argued, really shouldn't matter.

Originally Posted by crazyfree

/facepalm

To me, if I'm going to get career advice from two men, any respectable person meets for coffee, or something just generally more respectable than a bar. And then to go to another bar means it's no longer purely about career advice, but something more social. It's then a totally different situation, and you'd be expected to exercise all the same cautions someone going to a bar should exercise. AGAIN, since you seemed to have trouble with it the first time, I'm not saying she deserved, or should be blamed for what happened, but that doesn't make her any smarter imo.

It's like saying someone who walks down a dark alleyway is smart-no I'm not blaming them for getting mugged (the muggers are obviously the one's at fault, duh) but that doesn't make their decision any smarter.

But maybe that's just because of how I was raised. I don't trust anyone, and try not to put myself in situations that could lead to things like this. That's not to say you can ever completely avoid things like this happening. There will always be ****ed up individuals in the world, sadly, but you can try your best to avoid them.

You started your post by insinuating that she is not a respectable woman b/c she goes for career advice at a bar. are you terribly ignorant about bars or just mean spirited? Then you take some sort of insane highhorse position that you'd go for coffee...and anyone that does different can be compared to someone walking into a dark alley. wtf is up with that?


How is it 'not smart' for a woman to go to a bar with some guys? Are you seriously comparing going out for some drinks to walking down a dark alley? Seriously you just did that. Why and How? there are so many things wrong with that comparison, are you on drugs or something?

Every person should obviously be able to have drinks with some people they know without being considered stupid if they get raped. which is what you did, and makes you a terrible person. please go away.

But that's not the point being argued at the moment. It's whether you should trust a doctor any more or less in a social/non-professional situation. Should we expect doctors to behave any better? well..no...I would hope the every human being acts with respect and kindness towards others. I also trust construction workers to build a house that won't collapse on me, and my accountant to take care of my money. The doesn't change how they may behave outside of a professional setting. Hence why I'm saying that them being doctors, in the context of what's being argued, really shouldn't matter.

Actually, it SHOULD matter because behavior is very consistent.

if accountants steal/lie at their job, they probably don't take too much issue with it.
if construction workers have no problem half assing their job and not caring whether 23984293 pounds of wood and shit collapse on to pof someone, that same type of thinking probably applies to their personal life.
if someone wants to become a doctor to "help" people, generally they won't/shouldn't want to rape/kill/etc.

Especially in Canada, where we assume that people want to be doctors to "do good" (as opposed to the states where they have a lot of reason to want to be one - money). so yea, it's not stupid for people to assume that doctors are "good" people

Originally Posted by crazyfree

I totally get that, and I agree. That's what makes this whole thing a big news story to everyone.

But that's not the point being argued at the moment. It's whether you should trust a doctor any more or less in a social/non-professional situation. Should we expect doctors to behave any better? well..no...I would hope the every human being acts with respect and kindness towards others. I also trust construction workers to build a house that won't collapse on me, and my accountant to take care of my money. The doesn't change how they may behave outside of a professional setting. Hence why I'm saying that them being doctors, in the context of what's being argued, really shouldn't matter.

That'd be nice and all, but I'm not sure rapists are mentally sound enough that you should expect them to separate their professional life from the rest of their life.

I'm gonna argue that your argument that it shouldn't matter that he is a doctor since he should be able to separate his professional and and non-professional life doesn't really hold since this man, if guilty, is clearly not rational. That being considered it should matter that he is a doctor because a possibly irrational sex criminal is working in secluded settings with the most vulnerable amongst us.

Originally Posted by REPLEKIA/.

2 words: Pub Crawl

They're more popular than you'd think.

2 words: Career Advice

It's generally something that, unless you're getting the advice from close friends and not acquaintances, you don't do while out on the piss.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

My beef with this sort of reasoning is the fact that people always look to the situational/environmental factors.

If these guys had the intention of raping her, they were gonna get it done. In a bar or not.

If people have pills lying around to drug someone at a bar, then THEY HAD DRUGS LYING AROUND. Premeditated.

Stop blaming the environment.

There are BAD people in the world, simple as that.

Maybe this analogy helps: "guns don't kill people, people kill people."


And I REALLY hate to break it to you, but I think EVERYONE in the world has crossover between their professional and social life. Do you go to work and ONLY talk about work things?

...you're arguing my point.
They suggest a bar because that's going to make the whole date rape thing a lot easier to do. How often do you see people getting date raped at Williams?
They knew they were meeting at a bar, hence why they would have brought the drugs. Obviously it would have been premeditated. That's my whole point.

And of course there's crossover. But again, say I meet with my boss to discuss career options. Unless I'm looking to BJ my way to the top, I pick a respectable establishment where conversation is easy and projects the appropriate impressions about myself and my professionalism. UNLESS they are the ones who suggest a bar, in which case alarm bells go off, and I'm on red alert just in case they are sketchers.

Yes there are bad people. But just as putting yourself in a warzone increases your chances of getting hit with a bullet, so too does going to bar increase your chances of getting date raped.

Originally Posted by crazyfree

/facepalm

It's then a totally different situation, and you'd be expected to exercise all the same cautions someone going to a bar should exercise. AGAIN, since you seemed to have trouble with it the first time, I'm not saying she deserved, or should be blamed for what happened, but that doesn't make her any smarter imo.

no you're right. you are not saying she deserved it or should be blamed. You're just inferring she didn't exercise caution and she isn't very smart. Why don't you just come out and say you think she is to blame? You keep giving reasons why it is her fault and then quickly saying "she isn't to blame" I'm guessing you're doing that to save face around here?

EDIT: your post about how meeting at a bar must mean they are unprofessional or looking to give blowjobs shows that you are terribly ignorant and now I understand why you think such awful things about rape victims.

Originally Posted by crazyfree

2 words: Career Advice

It's generally something that, unless you're getting the advice from close friends and not acquaintances, you don't do while out on the piss.






...you're arguing my point.
They suggest a bar because that's going to make the whole date rape thing a lot easier to do. How often do you see people getting date raped at Williams?
They knew they were meeting at a bar, hence why they would have brought the drugs. Obviously it would have been premeditated. That's my whole point.

And of course there's crossover. But again, say I meet with my boss to discuss career options. Unless I'm looking to BJ my way to the top, I pick a respectable establishment where conversation is easy and projects the appropriate impressions about myself and my professionalism. UNLESS they are the ones who suggest a bar, in which case alarm bells go off, and I'm on red alert just in case they are sketchers.

Yes there are bad people. But just as putting yourself in a warzone increases your chances of getting hit with a bullet, so too does going to bar increase your chances of getting date raped.

What do you think kills people more, stomach cancer or vehicular accidents?

I have no statistics for rapes, period. And I highly doubt you know the rape statistics for bars vs more obscure locations.

You hear about people getting raped at bars ALL the time, which is why it's natural to assume it's a prime location for rapings and to fault people for "not exercising caution."

They could have just as easily drugged her coffee.

Scenario:
-meet up at williams-
"It's pretty busy, so why don't you go grab a booth/table while I grab our coffees?" (oh look, dude trying to act all gentlemanly, that's not enticing or anything)
-INSERT DRUGS HERE-

And I'm not arguing your point at all, wtf? I'm saying location is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Bar or coffee, if some dude wants to rape a broad, he'll make sure it happens. (Note: using "he" for simplicity's sake)

Originally Posted by REPLEKIA/.

That'd be nice and all, but I'm not sure rapists are mentally sound enough that you should expect them to separate their professional life from the rest of their life.

I'm gonna argue that your argument that it shouldn't matter that he is a doctor since he should be able to separate his professional and and non-professional life doesn't really hold since this man, if guilty, is clearly not rational. That being considered it should matter that he is a doctor because a possibly irrational sex criminal is working in secluded settings with the most vulnerable amongst us.

That't what I said. In the context of the crime it matters, and the ramifications, and the severity of the sityation it matters. In the context of "hey I'm going to a bar with two men, does it matter if they're doctors?" then no, I don't think it matters. There are a lot of shitty people that function just fine in their day to day life at work but are horrible at home. I'll say more below.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Actually, it SHOULD matter because behavior is very consistent.

if accountants steal/lie at their job, they probably don't take too much issue with it.
if construction workers have no problem half assing their job and not caring whether 23984293 pounds of wood and shit collapse on to pof someone, that same type of thinking probably applies to their personal life.
if someone wants to become a doctor to "help" people, generally they won't/shouldn't want to rape/kill/etc.

Especially in Canada, where we assume that people want to be doctors to "do good" (as opposed to the states where they have a lot of reason to want to be one - money). so yea, it's not stupid for people to assume that doctors are "good" people
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Sadly, there are still many in Canada who do want to, and do, become doctors for the wrong reasons. They usually suck at their job. We don't know how good these guys were at their jobs so I'm not really commenting on them.

Some people, like I mentioned above, can come across as perfectly fine, but go home and beat their kids and spouses etc etc. Their job doesn't change the likelihood of that happening. Some people may care more about their job, and pleasing the people there, than how they interact with other people. So I think wat I'm saying, is that just because they don;t rape their patients, doesn't mean they aren't bad people.

It's like the whole "you can judge a man from how he treats the waiter" Someone might treat you like a goddess, but with someone that doesn't matter, they'll show their ugly side.

Originally Posted by andrew22

no you're right. you are not saying she deserved it or should be blamed. You're just inferring she didn't exercise caution and she isn't very smart. Why don't you just come out and say you think she is to blame? You keep giving reasons why it is her fault and then quickly saying "she isn't to blame" I'm guessing you're doing that to save face around here?

EDIT: your post about how meeting at a bar must mean they are unprofessional or looking to give blowjobs shows that you are terribly ignorant and now I understand why you think such awful things about rape victims.

OMFG WHAT THE **** DO YOU KNOW ABOUT MY LIFE????????

I've learned from my ****ing mistakes, and maybe others, like her, and anyone readings this, could learn from mine. Now get off your ****ing high horse and stop assuming shit you ignorant fool.
You disgust me.

Crazyfree:


"A global survey of attitudes toward sexual violence by the Global Forum for Health Research shows that victim-blaming concepts are at least partially accepted in many countries. In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly." -wiki

I think you should resign from macinsiders. I can't control what countries accept, but I don't think victim-blaming should be accepted on macinsiders.

Originally Posted by crazyfree

Hence why I'm saying that them being doctors, in the context of what's being argued, really shouldn't matter.

Well I would not want to be touched by a doctor who is a rapist outside their work hours. Thats just me. Its one thing to have your money stolen and another to put your trust in a doctor, who will put their hands on your body and is rapist in their personal life.

Originally Posted by andrew22

no you're right. you are not saying she deserved it or should be blamed. You're just inferring she didn't exercise caution and she isn't very smart. Why don't you just come out and say you think she is to blame? You keep giving reasons why it is her fault and then quickly saying "she isn't to blame" I'm guessing you're doing that to save face around here?

EDIT: your post about how meeting at a bar must mean they are unprofessional or looking to give blowjobs shows that you are terribly ignorant and now I understand why you think such awful things about rape victims.

Stop rail roading her man, it isn't cool. And reading the article, the subtext reads like she didn't necessarily know these two guys all that well. Under any playbook, that isn't a smart thing to do, and yeah, for the record, I'd probably opt to grab a coffee or a bite to eat as bars are, by their very nature, very busy and noisy most of the time - it isn't an opportune place to sit down and talk over your CV and get tips on how to improve it. I'm not saying she's to blame for a lapse in judgement, but I am saying that whatever the circumstance here, there is very clearly a lapse in judgement involved.

What do you think kills people more, stomach cancer or vehicular accidents?

I have no statistics for rapes, period. And I highly doubt you know the rape statistics for bars vs more obscure locations.

You hear about people getting raped at bars ALL the time, which is why it's natural to assume it's a prime location for rapings and to fault people for "not exercising caution."

They could have just as easily drugged her coffee.

Scenario:
-meet up at williams-
"It's pretty busy, so why don't you go grab a booth/table while I grab our coffees?" (oh look, dude trying to act all gentlemanly, that's not enticing or anything)
-INSERT DRUGS HERE-

Even from a guy's point of view, I have never once heard women be lectured about their drink being spiked at a restaurant or coffee shop. I have, however, seen a large volume of cases involving bars. Now again, as bad as it is that this girl was raped, I, if I were a girl, would have been asking questions about meeting two men at a bar.

Originally Posted by andrew22

Crazyfree:


"A global survey of attitudes toward sexual violence by the Global Forum for Health Research shows that victim-blaming concepts are at least partially accepted in many countries. In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly." -wiki

I think you should resign from macinsiders. I can't control what countries accept, but I don't think victim-blaming should be accepted on macinsiders.

\

I would spit in your face for the utter insensitivity and ignorance you are displaying right now.
Get the **** out of my face you ****ing **** faced douchbag who knows all of dick all about me and my ****ing life.

Originally Posted by andrew22

Crazyfree:


"A global survey of attitudes toward sexual violence by the Global Forum for Health Research shows that victim-blaming concepts are at least partially accepted in many countries. In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly." -wiki

I think you should resign from macinsiders. I can't control what countries accept, but I don't think victim-blaming should be accepted on macinsiders.

And I think you should drink a nice cup of shut the hell up and stop stirring the pot.

Originally Posted by jo87

Well I would not want to be touched by a doctor who is a rapist outside their work hours. Thats just me. Its one thing to have your money stolen and another to put your trust in a doctor, who will put their hands on your body and is rapist in their personal life.

Again, like I've said multiple times now, I totally agree. That fact that they are doctors who did this is absolutely disgusting. The fact that we should trust certain people over others is what I'm arguing about.

ALL I'M SAYING FOR THOSE OF YOU NOT GETTING IT IS THAT I DON'T THINK DOCTORS ARE SOME PURE WONDERFUL GODS THAT DON'T DO BAD THINGS.

I'm sorry, but that other shithead is making me rage.