I honestly don't think profession comes into it - I know I can control my sexual urges. The fact is that these two men allegedly raped a woman, and if found guilty they're going to pay for it quite substantially. If the girl were my daughter, I'd be asking myself what the hell she was thinking meeting two guys at the bar and very probably looking for a way to get to the men in question right now.

Originally Posted by crazyfree

Again, like I've said multiple times now, I totally agree. That fact that they are doctors who did this is absolutely disgusting. The fact that we should trust certain people over others is what I'm arguing about.

But think about it, I've had positive experiences with doctors so I wouldn't really doubt their intentions to meet over a drink and talk about careers or cvs or whatever. Doctors are generally seen as people who will do good/help people etc. I don't doubt that this girl simply trusted them because they are doctors. Its just the way things work. If a girl trusts a doctor to give her a physical exam I don't see how she could doubt meeting up with a couple of them to talk about something like a cv.

Originally Posted by Kal El

I honestly don't think profession comes into it - I know I can control my sexual urges. The fact is that these two men allegedly raped a woman, and if found guilty they're going to pay for it quite substantially. If the girl were my daughter, I'd be asking myself what the hell she was thinking meeting two guys at the bar and very probably looking for a way to get to the men in question right now.

"A more mainstream view is that everybody has the theoretical right to feel safe at all times, but that the responsibility of preventing and minimising the risk of being in a dangerous situation is largely up to the individual. On this basis, the question is not whether the victim "deserved" to be raped, because nobody "deserves" to be the victim of crime, but rather whether the individual did choose to prevent or minimize the risk of being in a dangerous situation and/or the risk of harm in a dangerous situation."

I'm so glad im not your daughter. scenario: I get raped and feel terrible about it. 'hey what do you think about this? I feel so upset this happened" Kal El: "what they hell were you thinking meeting two guys at a bar?" :(

Great! Previously we were only terrorists. Now we are rapists too! Yayy

PS:I'm brown.

Originally Posted by nikJ

Great! Previously we were only terrorists. Now we are rapists too! Yayy

PS:I'm brown.

Alleged rapists.

Originally Posted by jo87

But think about it, I've had positive experiences with doctors so I wouldn't really doubt their intentions to meet over a drink and talk about careers or cvs or whatever. Doctors are generally seen as people who will do good/help people etc. I don't doubt that this girl simply trusted them because they are doctors. Its just the way things work. If a girl trusts a doctor to give her a physical exam I don't see how she could doubt meeting up with a couple of them to talk about something like a cv.

So...you'd honestly meet up with a person who touches your junk on a constant basis professionally speaking for career advice? See here's the thing - I go to bars for two things; either hang out with my friends, or get laid - there's not really any middle ground, as Alcohol, as a social lubricant is sold for the express purpose of making socialising and even hooking up that much easier. You lose focus, you lose your inhibitions, and the next morning after 8 or 10 pints you're waking up next to someone you pray to god to turn back time on, or blood on the wa...er...never mind.

Originally Posted by andrew22

"A more mainstream view is that everybody has the theoretical right to feel safe at all times, but that the responsibility of preventing and minimising the risk of being in a dangerous situation is largely up to the individual. On this basis, the question is not whether the victim "deserved" to be raped, because nobody "deserves" to be the victim of crime, but rather whether the individual did choose to prevent or minimize the risk of being in a dangerous situation and/or the risk of harm in a dangerous situation."

I'm so glad im not your daughter. scenario: I get raped and feel terrible about it. 'hey what do you think about this? I feel so upset this happened" Kal El: "what they hell were you thinking meeting two guys at a bar?" :(

See now you're cherry picking the parts of my replies that suit you. My exact words were "I would be asking myself" - as in I'd be wondering what possessed her to go to somewhere like a bar for job advice, when I'd raised her to always meet in public places where alcohol wasn't involved. Hell. I'm so paranoid, so far I've taught my girlfriend how a neck punch, the correct way and place to stash a knife for emergencies, and to only drink bottled beer when she's out with the girls because I get paranoid about women in bars. Not being sexist and all, but nine times out of ten an ******* in a bar is going to get what he wants and be able to overpower a girl to get it. Now two *******s improve the odds in their favour greatly.

[quote=jo87;221474][quote=crazyfree;22147 1]Again, like I've said multiple times now, I totally agree. That fact that they are doctors who did this is absolutely disgusting. The fact that we should trust certain people over others is what I'm arguing about.

But think about it, I've had positive experiences with doctors so I wouldn't really doubt their intentions to meet over a drink and talk about careers or cvs or whatever. Doctors are generally seen as people who will do good/help people etc. I don't doubt that this girl simply trusted them because they are doctors. Its just the way things work. If a girl trusts a doctor to give her a physical exam I don't see how she could doubt meeting up with a couple of them to talk about something like a cv.

I get that, I totally do. But in the same vein, I would also expect a professional to suggest a more professional venue for career adive. Just as I wouldn't allow a doctor to do a physical in their backyard.
Yes, the poor girl probably went along with it because of their professions. But does that mean it was the best decision? Quite obviously not. Is there anyway she could have avoided it? I'm sure had she brought up or experienced enough in life to know better, no she wouldn't have.

Hence why, as mentioned before, I feel bad for her for not knowing better, because then maybe she wouldn't have been in this situation. And again, like I mentioned before, even then, there is never any guarantee that no matter what you do, there is still a chance that you'll end up in a bad situation.

Is it her fault? no. Do I feel horrible for her? yes. Do I think meeting for career advice at a bar is a good idea? no.
Does that change how I view what happened to her? no. I still think it's horrible and I feel terrible for her.

Originally Posted by andrew22

"A more mainstream view is that everybody has the theoretical right to feel safe at all times, but that the responsibility of preventing and minimising the risk of being in a dangerous situation is largely up to the individual. On this basis, the question is not whether the victim "deserved" to be raped, because nobody "deserves" to be the victim of crime, but rather whether the individual did choose to prevent or minimize the risk of being in a dangerous situation and/or the risk of harm in a dangerous situation."

..isn't this what I've been saying all along?

wait
dddddddd

[quote=andrew22;221482 ][quote=crazyfree;22148 0]

Originally Posted by jo87

you continuously repeat yourself and you continuously blame her. In your new post you are now blaming her parents and the people who brought her up. It is almost as if you're telling her parents that they didn't teach her enough so she ended up getting raped as a result. could you actually tell her parents this in person?

You're being obtuse for the intent of pissing the girl off - you get that, right?

What a shame

Originally Posted by crazyfree

..isn't this what I've been saying all along?

yes and the source is this: http://rapesurvivor.pbworks. com/w/...Victim-blaming

that quote describes a type of victim blaming. so now you have agreed with the mainstream view of victim blaming. fair enough. case closed.

Originally Posted by andrew22

yes and the source is this: http://rapesurvivor.pbworks. com/w/...Victim-blaming

that quote describes a type of victim blaming. so now you have agreed with the mainstream view of victim blaming. fair enough. case closed.

I really don't understand how you're in university. That's not what she's saying.

This thread is all over the place. Of course, it's a terrible situation. I think the last thing this poor girl has to worry about at the moment is what people think about her decision-making abilities, if it happened. A hotel bar isn't that bad, but I agree in that it isn't something I would do. It's not like she agreed to meet them at a seedy motel, though.

And if it didn't happen, it's unfortunate that allegations are going to hurt the reputations of these two men so badly. There's no need to call them awful names before they've been deemed guilty of anything.

"you continuously repeat yourself and you continuously blame her. In your new post you are now blaming her parents and the people who brought her up. It is almost as if you're telling her parents that they didn't teach her enough so she ended up getting raped as a result. could you actually tell her parents this in person?"

How is that blaming her? I'm not blaming anyone ffs. The only person I'm blaming is the ****ing rapists. As I've said before. The only reason I'm repeating myself is because the same point keep getting brought up.

I honestly can't comprehend where this is coming from. I know if I got raped my parents would blame themselves for not teaching me better to minimize my risk by not going to meet two men at a bar. Then they would go on a ****ing rampage until they destroyed the people who were actually at blame.

It's part of a parents responsibility to bring up your child to understand the risks in this world and how best to avoid them. Does that mean its their fault? ONCE AGAIN obviously not. It's the rapists fault.

Beyond that I'm speakling in hypothetical terms "if this happened, if that happened", etc. not specifically to this situation.