Originally Posted by JMerolli

1. I guess we don't read the same papers or watch the same news

2. I encourage people in the service sector to unionize. Its an important way for us to force employers to pay fair wages. Its not ok, in my opinion, in any work place, when high level administrators and managers, are not taking any concessions for decisions they made, while requiring front line workers to bear the brunt of their mistakes. Let be make clear, the contract that they are offering is forcing concessions on us.

3. There are still substantial amounts of strikers. Let me tell you the Poli Sci department would be scrambling. Also, I think many of my students would agree, I am a good TA. I can show you my course reviews. I know people who have won awards that are striking. We love our work and students but we also need to protect ourselves.

4. I can't stress enough that we are researchers not just students. Did you know that I paided almost 6500 dollars in tuition and I am not taking a single class. Next year, when i'll be away on field research and not using any university resources, I will still have to pay tuition. In my 5th year, I will even lose my office (which I share with 4 people) and will still have to pay tuition which by the current rate will be almost 8 thousand a year. Our funding package is crucial to our ability to produce original research. My main point is comparing graduate studies with undergrad is comparing apples and oranges.

5. Public Transit or Parking is free around longwood, which is an easy walking distance. If you need tips on free places to park around campus, I actually know all the streets that have all day parking. I can't afford to park on campus, so I am a pro at free parking! I have also encouraged people to turn off their cars while waiting but because we are moving cars much more quickly then the protocol allows us to, most people don't.

BUT maybe we should just agree to disagree, as this is the thread for protesting the protest (although calling it a protest is a bit of a misnomer). I only posted the first time, to ask that people abide by the student code of conduct. I dont really feel like our conversation is constructive. But again, I ask for your own sake and that of the picketers, to try to be respectful or at least indifferent at the lines. That will keep everyone safe!

4a. Just to echo your argument. I am an international grad student, and I pay twice the amount a domestic student pays. That's more than what an average domestic student has to pay for rent, out of my paychecks. I have been fortunate with receiving bursaries, but my understanding is that this isn't the case for a good part if not most of the international students. While the money seems good on paper, a lot of TA/RAs are scrapping to get by. Nevertheless, I do feel fortunate seeing many others that are having trouble on the job front nowadays.

4b. Just out of curiousity, since my research means I live in a lab, what is a field research like for you?

5. There are also spots on Sanders and down Emerson onto Whitney. Most of them are 1-hour until 6pm then it's good till the next morning. Some spots are good for 12 hours, but they are highly sought after and a lot of it depends on luck. I am not sure about the parking situation on the East side of school...

Originally Posted by JMerolli

1. I guess we don't read the same papers or watch the same news

2. I encourage people in the service sector to unionize. Its an important way for us to force employers to pay fair wages. Its not ok, in my opinion, in any work place, when high level administrators and managers, are not taking any concessions for decisions they made, while requiring front line workers to bear the brunt of their mistakes. Let be make clear, the contract that they are offering is forcing concessions on us.

3. There are still substantial amounts of strikers. Let me tell you the Poli Sci department would be scrambling. Also, I think many of my students would agree, I am a good TA. I can show you my course reviews. I know people who have won awards that are striking. We love our work and students but we also need to protect ourselves.

4. I can't stress enough that we are researchers not just students. Did you know that I paided almost 6500 dollars in tuition and I am not taking a single class. Next year, when i'll be away on field research and not using any university resources, I will still have to pay tuition. In my 5th year, I will even lose my office (which I share with 4 people) and will still have to pay tuition which by the current rate will be almost 8 thousand a year. Our funding package is crucial to our ability to produce original research. My main point is comparing graduate studies with undergrad is comparing apples and oranges.

5. Public Transit or Parking is free around longwood, which is an easy walking distance. If you need tips on free places to park around campus, I actually know all the streets that have all day parking. I can't afford to park on campus, so I am a pro at free parking! I have also encouraged people to turn off their cars while waiting but because we are moving cars much more quickly then the protocol allows us to, most people don't.

BUT maybe we should just agree to disagree, as this is the thread for protesting the protest (although calling it a protest is a bit of a misnomer). I only posted the first time, to ask that people abide by the student code of conduct. I dont really feel like our conversation is constructive. But again, I ask for your own sake and that of the picketers, to try to be respectful or at least indifferent at the lines. That will keep everyone safe!

1. Oh liberal media and your big print with flashy titles....will you ever have credible information? I was basing this point on my education, work experience, and conversations with people who work (and have worked) in the industry since well before I was born.

2. Define fair? The auto industry wanted 'fair wages' and now your next American car will be built in Mexico. That's not the point though. If the conditions are brutal and the pay is horrible then why not go elsewhere?

3. There are substantial amount of strikers. From other unions. Out of all 15 of them a whopping 100 people came out. I bet this forum and its protesting the protest thread could bring out more people then 15 organized unions. Regardless of the definition of 'substantial' I think the 'majority' are not in favour.

4. We all have to pay tuition. My point is that I don't have scholarships and high wages to cover this. I'm not going to argue the research position to much because I don't fully understand it. All I know is that I have a few friends who were/are researchers at Mac and i dont remember hearing any complaints from them at all. In fact many of them came to Mac from overseas so I can't see why Mac is so horrible if we're attracting researchers from around the world?

5. I ended up saving up hundreds of dollars so that I could park on campus so that I wouldn't have to spend time finding a spot, waiting for a bus, walking to class, etc. Having someone prevent me from easily accessing something I have paid $100s for is what has pushed me over the edge.

I actually see this as constructive as you've brought up some points which I feel I have argued, some of them fairly sucessfully, others less so due to my lack of knowledge in certain areas.

I'm enjoying the maturity and opinions spyder83 and JMerolli just brought to the thread.

We don't all have to convince each other our point of view by the time this thread is done. As spyder was alluding to, even just having different perspectives on the thread could be constructive, and could be a tool to prompt good discussions/info to be shared.

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread .. but I was just wondering .. are we going to get our money back for the tutorials that have been canceled? How do we go about doing this? If we don't get our money back, then who can we go complain to / kidnap and hold for hostage? If we don't get our money back I will actually hunger strike or something similar. If I die then at least it will prove a point. I did not work my ass off this summer while studying for the MCAT at the same time so I could pay for my tutorials to get canceled.

Originally Posted by Rossclot

TAs are lucky, they have a nice jobs that pay money. I have had to join the Canadian Forces to be able to pay for my education. Really puts things into perspective when they are striking for childcare/wages/ect.., where as I could easily have to pay for my education with my life. Hopefully I wont run into an IED or be captured and murdered on video to make a useless point for some fanatical person. I realize I did "have to" join, but no where else would hire me. That is another story though, but still, kinda puts things into perspective.

I know, and know of, people close to me in the service, and they have returned alive and well from the tour. I'm not sure if you have already, but I just want to express my respect for your decision and wish you all the wellness and safeness for your future..."outings".

I apologize for being completely off topic.

Originally Posted by JMerolli

2. I encourage people in the service sector to unionize. Its an important way for us to force employers to pay fair wages. Its not ok, in my opinion, in any work place, when high level administrators and managers, are not taking any concessions for decisions they made, while requiring front line workers to bear the brunt of their mistakes. Let be make clear, the contract that they are offering is forcing concessions on us.

I've worked at several jobs over the past 5 years or so. The worst job I've ever had was the only one that was unionized. I made minimum wage, and then had to pay union dues and membership fees out of that. They were the least accommodating for requests for time off, and the managers had the worst attitude towards the students who worked there (who compromised most of the labor force). Since that job, I've had 3 that were not unionized, and they were all far more enjoyable, and also payed more (minimum of 25 cents above minimum wage plus tips). So I have to disagree that unions automatically mean a better job/better wage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8MBDeWmMho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhm3A...eature=related

Originally Posted by ladyh

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread .. but I was just wondering .. are we going to get our money back for the tutorials that have been canceled? How do we go about doing this? If we don't get our money back, then who can we go complain to / kidnap and hold for hostage? If we don't get our money back I will actually hunger strike or something similar. If I die then at least it will prove a point. I did not work my ass off this summer while studying for the MCAT at the same time so I could pay for my tutorials to get canceled.

I sincerely doubt it.

At York they got "tuition credits", not refunds for the courses that they missed. I knew a few people who were graduating that year so it was pointless for them.

Perhaps Mac will be a bit better about refunding students, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Originally Posted by Jay

I sincerely doubt it.

At York they got "tuition credits", not refunds for the courses that they missed. I knew a few people who were graduating that year so it was pointless for them.

Perhaps Mac will be a bit better about refunding students, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I hate to alarm anybody, but the injustices to students that this strike has brought about have made me suicidal and depressed.

I can't believe it's "okay" to make students work their asses off to pay for tuition, and then just TAKE AWAY part of what they paid for and not even consider a refund.

I realize there are far greater issues and injustices in the rest of the world, like starving children and sex trades, but this still pisses me off.

I blame CUPE and the university for my deteriorating mental health. I was totally better but once this strike started I got more and more depressed about how little they care about us. It's a shitty feeling to be part of an institution that steals from us. "Here, give us thousands of dollars of your hard earned money, so you can attend class and go to tutorials". "Oh, sorry, you can't have tutorials anymore. We lied, we made you pay for it, but you can't have it afterall. We're just going to take your money anyway though, since we don't care about you"

Originally Posted by ladyh

I hate to alarm anybody, but the injustices to students that this strike has brought about have made me suicidal and depressed.

I can't believe it's "okay" to make students work their asses off to pay for tuition, and then just TAKE AWAY part of what they paid for and not even consider a refund.

I realize there are far greater issues and injustices in the rest of the world, like starving children and sex trades, but this still pisses me off.

I blame CUPE and the university for my deteriorating mental health. I was totally better but once this strike started I got more and more depressed about how little they care about us. It's a shitty feeling to be part of an institution that steals from us. "Here, give us thousands of dollars of your hard earned money, so you can attend class and go to tutorials". "Oh, sorry, you can't have tutorials anymore. We lied, we made you pay for it, but you can't have it afterall. We're just going to take your money anyway though, since we don't care about you"

ladyh:

You shouldn't feel like you need to have any reservations so you don't alarm anyone. This IS the place where voices are heard and concerns are shared.

Depression is a serious thing, and I hate to see what the current situation is doing to you. Sometimes things that are out of our hands happen that can affect our mood and emotions greatly, but we all have to realize we never have to go through anything alone in life, whether it's family, friends, or just people on the a forum, there are always people that are more than willing to listen and support you.

McMaster does have resources for personal counselling, in case you did not know already. This link provides more information as well as contact information to make appointments at the bottom:
http://csd.mcmaster.ca/centre-for-st...ealth-services

everyone is doing what they thnk is best for the students. There is just disagreement what is best. it just has to be all worked out through debates and protests and arbitration. this is all positive stuff, and should almost be a happy thing in a lot of ways.

Originally Posted by Rossclot

Engineers have no brains? hahaha no they are just jerks. I love how these ridiculous stereotypes permeate everything. If you make fun of an engineer we wont cry because we waste all of our tears crying over our homework.

TAs are lucky, they have a nice jobs that pay money. I have had to join the Canadian Forces to be able to pay for my education. Really puts things into perspective when they are striking for childcare/wages/ect.., where as I could easily have to pay for my education with my life. Hopefully I wont run into an IED or be captured and murdered on video to make a useless point for some fanatical person. I realize I did "have to" join, but no where else would hire me. That is another story though, but still, kinda puts things into perspective.

Back on topic though, I think MacInsiders should make Micadjems an administrator of some sorts and allow her to have access to a thread only she can post in so we can all be updated of times without having to scroll through pages of discussion to find things out. It should be stickied to the top of the forum too. Sorry for thrusting that responsibility on you.

Even though I want to protest the protest, I still kinda want to buy some timbits for the protesters.

I hope everyone is growing their November moustache. I look ridiculous.

I know a lot of people in my program that are with the armed forces for one reason or another - though likely the free university is a very nice perk for them. Good on you for serving the country (Even if you kind of have to - mad props)

I am a bit frustrated as this has gone on, but likely if I'll go out again i'll just make a new thread - but seeing as so many people think that engineers are idiots or something they'll probably make it less fun... I dunno it's kind of dampened my spirits!

Originally Posted by spyder83

1. Oh liberal media and your big print with flashy titles....will you ever have credible information? I was basing this point on my education, work experience, and conversations with people who work (and have worked) in the industry since well before I was born.

2. Define fair? The auto industry wanted 'fair wages' and now your next American car will be built in Mexico. That's not the point though. If the conditions are brutal and the pay is horrible then why not go elsewhere?

3. There are substantial amount of strikers. From other unions. Out of all 15 of them a whopping 100 people came out. I bet this forum and its protesting the protest thread could bring out more people then 15 organized unions. Regardless of the definition of 'substantial' I think the 'majority' are not in favour.

4. We all have to pay tuition. My point is that I don't have scholarships and high wages to cover this. I'm not going to argue the research position to much because I don't fully understand it. All I know is that I have a few friends who were/are researchers at Mac and i dont remember hearing any complaints from them at all. In fact many of them came to Mac from overseas so I can't see why Mac is so horrible if we're attracting researchers from around the world?

5. I ended up saving up hundreds of dollars so that I could park on campus so that I wouldn't have to spend time finding a spot, waiting for a bus, walking to class, etc. Having someone prevent me from easily accessing something I have paid $100s for is what has pushed me over the edge.

I actually see this as constructive as you've brought up some points which I feel I have argued, some of them fairly sucessfully, others less so due to my lack of knowledge in certain areas.

1. Define left wing? I'm pretty radical, so for me the globe is too right.

2. I think a fair package (which we aren't asking for a wage increase. though I would accept the argument that asking for a tuition credit, is calling a spade by another name)...so a fair package would not require us to take concessions. Understand that we entered into a contract with the University when we accepted our packages for graduate studies. If every year, I am taking home 400-500 less then the year prior (which by the end would amount for 2000) I dont think that is a "fair package". Its pretty difficult to hear that there is no money, when you see waste around the University campus...The arts quad, which I have to walk through every day to get to campus is a prime example. Our argument is that its an issues of priority. We could spend money on retirement bonuses for Presidents, one year of which would cover the amount we are asking for to cover our benefits plan OR we could spend it on our students. In general, I think students across the campus need to mobalize to question and challenge the university's model. Do we really want McMaster to become a factory for degrees or are we here for high quality education?

3. True we had a rally. I have been away at a conference the past few days, but I must tell you that picketing is an emotionally and physically draining experiences. Being told to "f-off" and dodging cars does take its toll. I still maintain firing us is not the solution. The attitute that "we should know our place" is disturbing for me, espcially as an outspoken feminist. No one will ever convince me that we should remain silent on injustice. Walking away is not a solution. Even if I quit, would allowing another person to take my place, because they are need the financial support, be addressing the problem? It would simply shift the burden onto someone else. Just because someone is willing to accept unjust working contitions does not make then just (see child labour)

4. I think my point about tution is more to explain that we in fact "overpay". Many other university have tutition rebates for students once they are not longer taking classes. If you'd like to know more about what graduate school requires I'd be happy to inform you. I think this is where a lot of confusion stems. I'll explain my program.

As a PhD is Political Science, my first year required me to take 3 seminar courses per term. In the second year, we write comprehensive exams (which I am in the middle of right now). If we fail those exams, we are required to leave the program. Then we begin our original research (although the first 2 years are preparation for this). Depending on our reserach program, which for our department, we design and defend to our committee, most of us will end up going field research. So for my project, which deals with immigration and settlment policy in a comparative analysis, I will be conducting interviews with service providers, policy makers and clients of settlement agencies. This will require me to spend time abroad, which I will have to pay for from my TAship and scholarship. There is access in my department for travel grants and from the GSA, all of which are very competative and not very much money anyway. Based on my findings and other research, I will then write my dissertation, which I submit to the University to keep in their archives. During this time, I have and will continue to write journal articles and book chapters, which I dont get paid to write, that add to our libraries resources and your education.

This process of knowledge creation is at the heart of Universities. What would students quote in their essays or learn in class if Universities did not produce high quality scholars that are pushing the edge of knowledge? Ensuring graduate students can complete their degrees and produce the best quality work they can, is crucial to acedmia in general, and in the best interest of all people involved with university education.

5. The parking situtation does suck. Unfortunately, thats the point. Its a pressure tactic for the University. They dont want us or you to be angry, so this should force them to act. Honestly, I've found parking around longwood is faster, even if you walk. But I guess it depends on where on campus you are going. I would suggest that you try to avoid peak hours. 7:30-9:00 are the worst times to arrive. The rest of the day is so varied, I can't really give you a suggestion.

I know you guys aren't getting this message from the University, so I'll post it again. For you own sake, abide by the code of conduct. I know that its tempting to yell at us, but I have seen the police pull over a car for yelling obcentities. The person was late, but that just made him/her even later for class. I am not saying that there aren't people on both sides that need to take it down a notch. So I encourage strikers, scabbers and students to treat each other with respect. Eventually, we'll all be back at work and the better we treat each other now, the more easy that transition will be. As it stands, I feel intimidated to walk on campus and am not sure that will end with the strike.


To the person that is experiencing mental trama as a result of this strike. I strongly encourage you to seek help. Our intention is never to harm anyone in this way. I deeply regret that this has been the result for you.

factory for degrees or are we here for high quality education?

Apparently I'm the only one here for a degree... >_<




Honestly though, if I paid for parking for the school year and a bunch of strike/unionpeople told me to park along longwood because it's faster, I would be PISSED outta my mind. That's not what people pay for. Point is, student's shouldn't have to suffer for this. But you guys are purposely making students suffer because pissing US off enough is probably about the ONLY way to get the university to care about your demands. Try to avoid peak hours...? Okay, should people just skip class if they have classes at peak hour times? Come on now.

You guys aren't picketing against the university, you're picketing against the students at this point. Obviously you guys picketing has had a negligable impact on the university b/c as other people have mentioned, MANY classes are still going on as usual. Not a single one of commerce tuts are cancelled, and eng (from what I understand), and probably some others judging from what I've read. The only thing you're really accomplishing is making students hate you and pissing them off, and since we can all agree that "the university doesn't care about taking our money," why would they care about our feelings too?

This strike should just end. You're not accomplishing what you've intended to.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Apparently I'm the only one here for a degree... >_<




Honestly though, if I paid for parking for the school year and a bunch of strike/unionpeople told me to park along longwood because it's faster, I would be PISSED outta my mind. That's not what people pay for. Point is, student's shouldn't have to suffer for this. But you guys are purposely making students suffer because pissing US off enough is probably about the ONLY way to get the university to care about your demands.
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The students are being used as leverage by both sides, which is unacceptable.

Seriously, the union is lucky the strike is so ineffective, or they would have a lot more to deal with than they already have.