Originally Posted by lawleypop

This strike should just end. You're not accomplishing what you've intended to.

Let's hope that the true majority of the union members actually votes this time around and accepts the deal.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Apparently I'm the only one here for a degree... >_<




Honestly though, if I paid for parking for the school year and a bunch of strike/unionpeople told me to park along longwood because it's faster, I would be PISSED outta my mind. That's not what people pay for. Point is, student's shouldn't have to suffer for this. But you guys are purposely making students suffer because pissing US off enough is probably about the ONLY way to get the university to care about your demands.
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Yes, you pretty just captured the spirit of a strike. I remind you that I paid tution this year too. Everyone on the picket line is a student.

You can be pissed at me all you want, I was just trying to give some suggestions to alleviate some of the stress students are experincing. Which some would argue is not what I should be doing as a striker. So maybe I should stop.

Am I the only one disturbed that the University has spent most of its resources on ensuring people could scab, but didn't let any of you know what to deal with a picket line? That you could be arrested and fined for certain behaviors. You may call be paranoid, but it seems they want you to act in this manner to break the spirits of the strikers. But ultimately, they are putting their own students and employees safety at risk.

Also of course we are all here for degrees. But what I am suggesting to you is that University is more then a piece of paper. We should all be here to learn and part of this strike is ensuring that the University sustain conditions under which learning is the primary goal. I guess I am an idealist, but I figure, isn't that what youth (of which mine is slowly fading) is for?

Originally Posted by JMerolli

Am I the only one disturbed that the University has spent most of its resources on ensuring people could scab, but didn't let any of you know what to deal with a picket line? That you could be arrested and fined for certain behaviors. You may call be paranoid, but it seems they want you to act in this manner to break the spirits of the strikers. But ultimately, they are putting their own students and employees safety at risk.

It's not the university or anyone elses responsibility to account for how people act. If someone goes to the picket line and acts like an idiot, then they deserve to be punished.

As anti-strike and anti-CUPE as I am, I haven't gone up to the picket lines and made a fool of myself. Interesting how I can do that without the university's help.

Yes, you are paranoid, just like the other conspiracy theorists that have posted here.

Originally Posted by andrew22

everyone is doing what they thnk is best for the students. There is just disagreement what is best. it just has to be all worked out through debates and protests and arbitration. this is all positive stuff, and should almost be a happy thing in a lot of ways.

I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just confused. How is CUPE acting in the best interest of the students?

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just confused. How is CUPE acting in the best interest of the students?

Well you see Kathy, by them getting what they want, that's going to make them better and more attentive TA's and that's going to benefit us all in the long run.

Or something cheesy and redundant like that. ^

If the union gets everything that they want, tuition will skyrocket. Pretty much exactly opposite to what is in the best interests of students.

Originally Posted by Taunton

If the union gets everything that they want, tuition will skyrocket. Pretty much exactly opposite to what is in the best interests of students.

Me thinks someone is going to retort with the "800million figure and how they can afford to give us what we're asking for, since it's only 0.001 of the 800mil." 8-)

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Me thinks someone is going to retort with the "800million figure and how they can afford to give us what we're asking for, since it's only 0.001 of the 800mil." 8-)

Methinks someone doesn't understand how businesses work. :p

Increased costs always get placed on the consumer.

Originally Posted by Taunton

Methinks someone doesn't understand how businesses work. :p

Increased costs always get placed on the consumer.

You guys are all wrong. Thank god its not an exam question I am marking.

My response has always been that it should not be TA's taking concessions for the University's adminstration. Cuts may have to be made, but priority should be given to high quality education over empty underground parking lots or unwanted campuses.

Richard Stubbs, a professor in Poli Sci and former President of MUFA (McMaster University Faculty Association) who also sits on the Senate, wrote a great article on the misguided priorities of the university.

http://www.thespec.com/article/503831

In regards to tuition, while it can't sky rocket (since its capped on 4%) whether or not we take concessions, I know from meetings I have sat on with the President of the University, they intend to continue to take 4% and indeed, before the strike was even called (over a month prior) he noted that they would be pressuring the province to increase the tutition increase cap to 8% for undergrads (which is what grads pay). Your MSU reps can confirm this. While I am against this increases, my point has always been that if they University is going to increase tuition, should at least some of that go to improving the quality of education?

This includes, hiring tenure-track professors over CLA's and sessionals and supporting graduate education. Please read my above post to understand why its important to support graduate, especially PhD education for the sake of your own degrees and above all, knowledge creation, the heart of Acedemia. Without our original research, there would be nothing to teach all of you. Your degrees are intended to give you advantage over other people, because you have access to the newest and most cutting edge research and knowledge. You need scholars to produce that knowledge first.

I could go on about class sizes, but I think thats been said over and over again. If you dont accept that tutorial size does impact your education I have nothing else to add other then the fact that university ranking systems do take into account class size. Indeed, im sure those rankings helped many of you pick McMaster.

here is another good one

http://www.thespec.com/printArticle/423668

TA's account for 3%

JMerolli had pointed out many arguments that I was going up bring up.

JMerolli had pointed out the increase in tuition. I was going to add that I believe it was said that the school administration had expressed interest in deregulating the tuition (basically they can hike the tuition up by any % after that). If that were to be seriously be considered, the union's proposal in protection against tuition increase will act a disincentive towards that final decision.

Yes, some might argue that tuition is not a term of employment, but as someone had pointed out comparing our take-home-pay to other universities' is irrelevant because different schools are situated in different regions with different cost of living. Going along the same argument, the "cost" of being a student in a particular year should include the amounts having to be given back to the employer as tuition. It was already mentioned that some school even go as far as offering tuition rebates for grad. students that aren't taking classes.

Originally Posted by Eugene

JMerolli had pointed out many arguments that I was going up bring up.

JMerolli had pointed out the increase in tuition. I was going to add that I believe it was said that the school administration had expressed interest in deregulating the tuition (basically they can hike the tuition up by any % after that). If that were to be seriously be considered, the union's proposal in protection against tuition increase will act a disincentive towards that final decision.

Yes, some might argue that tuition is not a term of employment, but as someone had pointed out comparing our take-home-pay to other universities' is irrelevant because different schools are situated in different regions with different cost of living. Going along the same argument, the "cost" of being a student in a particular year should include the amounts having to be given back to the employer as tuition. It was already mentioned that some school even go as far as offering tuition rebates for grad. students that aren't taking classes.

There are so many students who pay tuition and work at McMaster, but they aren't TAs. I just don't think this "Tuition is going up so our pay should go up too!" argument is valid.

If you work at an insurance company, and you use that company for insurance, and their prices go up, your pay won't go up. So why does CUPE think TA pay should increase if tuition does? In a perfect world, that'd be great. But no one gets that kind of treatment. So why does CUPE deserve it over everyone else?

Originally Posted by JMerolli

You guys are all wrong. Thank god its not an exam question I am marking.

My response has always been that it should not be TA's taking concessions for the University's adminstration. Cuts may have to be made, but priority should be given to high quality education over empty underground parking lots or unwanted campuses.

Richard Stubbs, a professor in Poli Sci and former President of MUFA (McMaster University Faculty Association) who also sits on the Senate, wrote a great article on the misguided priorities of the university.

http://www.thespec.com/article/503831

In regards to tuition, while it can't sky rocket (since its capped on 4%) whether or not we take concessions, I know from meetings I have sat on with the President of the University, they intend to continue to take 4% and indeed, before the strike was even called (over a month prior) he noted that they would be pressuring the province to increase the tutition increase cap to 8% for undergrads (which is what grads pay). Your MSU reps can confirm this. While I am against this increases, my point has always been that if they University is going to increase tuition, should at least some of that go to improving the quality of education?

This includes, hiring tenure-track professors over CLA's and sessionals and supporting graduate education. Please read my above post to understand why its important to support graduate, especially PhD education for the sake of your own degrees and above all, knowledge creation, the heart of Acedemia. Without our original research, there would be nothing to teach all of you. Your degrees are intended to give you advantage over other people, because you have access to the newest and most cutting edge research and knowledge. You need scholars to produce that knowledge first.

I could go on about class sizes, but I think thats been said over and over again. If you dont accept that tutorial size does impact your education I have nothing else to add other then the fact that university ranking systems do take into account class size. Indeed, im sure those rankings helped many of you pick McMaster.

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I want to point out that Stubbs is a fourth year seminar professor and he doesn't want to cross the picket lines. So that seminar doesn't have a prof and a bunch of fourth year Pol Sci students are getting screwed because of him.

I'm not sure if that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I should mention it. It just seems odd to me that he would complain about the "misguided priorities of the university" when he is directly screwing over students.

Originally Posted by JMerolli

1. Define left wing? I'm pretty radical, so for me the globe is too right.

2. I think a fair package (which we aren't asking for a wage increase. though I would accept the argument that asking for a tuition credit, is calling a spade by another name)...so a fair package would not require us to take concessions. Understand that we entered into a contract with the University when we accepted our packages for graduate studies. If every year, I am taking home 400-500 less then the year prior (which by the end would amount for 2000) I dont think that is a "fair package". Its pretty difficult to hear that there is no money, when you see waste around the University campus...The arts quad, which I have to walk through every day to get to campus is a prime example. Our argument is that its an issues of priority. We could spend money on retirement bonuses for Presidents, one year of which would cover the amount we are asking for to cover our benefits plan OR we could spend it on our students. In general, I think students across the campus need to mobalize to question and challenge the university's model. Do we really want McMaster to become a factory for degrees or are we here for high quality education?

3. True we had a rally. I have been away at a conference the past few days, but I must tell you that picketing is an emotionally and physically draining experiences. Being told to "f-off" and dodging cars does take its toll. I still maintain firing us is not the solution. The attitute that "we should know our place" is disturbing for me, espcially as an outspoken feminist. No one will ever convince me that we should remain silent on injustice. Walking away is not a solution. Even if I quit, would allowing another person to take my place, because they are need the financial support, be addressing the problem? It would simply shift the burden onto someone else. Just because someone is willing to accept unjust working contitions does not make then just (see child labour)

4. I think my point about tution is more to explain that we in fact "overpay". Many other university have tutition rebates for students once they are not longer taking classes. If you'd like to know more about what graduate school requires I'd be happy to inform you. I think this is where a lot of confusion stems. I'll explain my program.

As a PhD is Political Science, my first year required me to take 3 seminar courses per term. In the second year, we write comprehensive exams (which I am in the middle of right now). If we fail those exams, we are required to leave the program. Then we begin our original research (although the first 2 years are preparation for this). Depending on our reserach program, which for our department, we design and defend to our committee, most of us will end up going field research. So for my project, which deals with immigration and settlment policy in a comparative analysis, I will be conducting interviews with service providers, policy makers and clients of settlement agencies. This will require me to spend time abroad, which I will have to pay for from my TAship and scholarship. There is access in my department for travel grants and from the GSA, all of which are very competative and not very much money anyway. Based on my findings and other research, I will then write my dissertation, which I submit to the University to keep in their archives. During this time, I have and will continue to write journal articles and book chapters, which I dont get paid to write, that add to our libraries resources and your education.

This process of knowledge creation is at the heart of Universities. What would students quote in their essays or learn in class if Universities did not produce high quality scholars that are pushing the edge of knowledge? Ensuring graduate students can complete their degrees and produce the best quality work they can, is crucial to acedmia in general, and in the best interest of all people involved with university education.

5. The parking situtation does suck. Unfortunately, thats the point. Its a pressure tactic for the University. They dont want us or you to be angry, so this should force them to act. Honestly, I've found parking around longwood is faster, even if you walk. But I guess it depends on where on campus you are going. I would suggest that you try to avoid peak hours. 7:30-9:00 are the worst times to arrive. The rest of the day is so varied, I can't really give you a suggestion.

I know you guys aren't getting this message from the University, so I'll post it again. For you own sake, abide by the code of conduct. I know that its tempting to yell at us, but I have seen the police pull over a car for yelling obcentities. The person was late, but that just made him/her even later for class. I am not saying that there aren't people on both sides that need to take it down a notch. So I encourage strikers, scabbers and students to treat each other with respect. Eventually, we'll all be back at work and the better we treat each other now, the more easy that transition will be. As it stands, I feel intimidated to walk on campus and am not sure that will end with the strike.


To the person that is experiencing mental trama as a result of this strike. I strongly encourage you to seek help. Our intention is never to harm anyone in this way. I deeply regret that this has been the result for you.

I thought your stance was that this was non-constructive and we should agree to disagree? I'm assuming you've changed your position on this as well and shall therefore respond to your comments:

1. It was sarcasm, but if you would like to challenge my thoughts as well as those of my friends and co-workers, I invite you to bring some factual evidence to the table. Citing a toronto star headline that said "the recession is over" a few months ago isn't going to really cut it...if however you've talked to an econ prof or two, or some people in the industry, then I'm all ears. The fact that you won't find anyone in the industry who agrees with this, and the fact that the commerce students that have responded have agreed with me does not give you a solid footing in this area.

2. Speaking of contracts I entered into a contract stating that I would have easy access to parking today with shuttle bus service. I'm no longer getting this as I have to wait 45 min to get onto campus. Again I'm not picketing around the security office blasting music and destroying people's daily schedules.

The begining of your argument also refers to money. If $40/hr is not enough for you then you have some serious financial management issues. Please go back and read my responses to the rediculous wages being offered as I do not feel like wasting more time by repeating myself.

The university already has a good standing in terms of health sciences, engineering, business, as well as many other programs. Therefore I don't see how it isn't a "place for higher education". After being strongly recognized by various third parties for being a leader in research and innovation, I'm going to have to take the side of all these sources over one complaining person.

3. Everyday I drive in to school and I have not seen anyone have to dodge a car and I don't think anyone would attempt this with several Hamilton police standing right there along side a series of McMaster security guards. As for being sworn at, how would you like it if i picketed in front of your house and prevented you from backing out of your driveway and going to work/school? I don't think you'd be coming up to me the next day with flowers, chocolate, and a some gift certificates....also don't equate yourself to child labour because $40/hr and $40/year are really quite different (re: Math).

4. Given that your previous arguments all point towards Mac being a physical compilation of all that is eveil with its child labour, unfair wages, never listening, being consistently wrong, and nothing more then a factory producing degrees I still don't understand why you wouldn't transfer to a "better" place where you won't have to be paid so "poorly", stand outside in the cold, or deal with any of this.

5. As far as parking goes, I will take your suggestion and park on Longwood as soon as you re-imburse me for my parking costs. I look forward to your reply.

In terms of pulling a car over for swearing, I find this hard to believe as swearing isn't illegal. In fact if I was held up and mnissed a class I'd probably make it a bigger issue with my right to free speech. The purpose of having police on campus is to prevent danger, not to encourage people to smile and say have a nice day to those that are inconveniancing them. I wouldn't be suprised if the police hated the protestors just as much for making them spend the majority of their shift standing outside in the cold and rain with nothing happening.

Perhaps instead of telling everyone to seek alternatives such as councelling or even alternative parking, you should just stop inconveniancing people so we can go back to our daily lives, not having to deal with all of your problems which many of us don't agree with anyway.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I want to point out that Stubbs is a fourth year seminar professor and he doesn't want to cross the picket lines. So that seminar doesn't have a prof and a bunch of fourth year Pol Sci students are getting screwed because of him.

I'm not sure if that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I should mention it. It just seems odd to me that he would complain about the "misguided priorities of the university" when he is directly screwing over students.

Kathy:

I certainly wasn't aware of this. Thanks for pointing out the article.

Not crossing the picket line, especially someone not in the CUPE, sends a (pretty strong) statement that one does not agree with what the university is doing. This would actually agree, instead of contradict, with some of the opinions in the article. Unfortunately, students are the ones caught in the cross-fire between the exchange of stands between the school and CUPE (and the ones that take actions to show where they are on the issue). However, screwing over the students was never the intended consequence.