Originally Posted by Kathy2

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I want to point out that Stubbs is a fourth year seminar professor and he doesn't want to cross the picket lines. So that seminar doesn't have a prof and a bunch of fourth year Pol Sci students are getting screwed because of him.

I'm not sure if that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I should mention it. It just seems odd to me that he would complain about the "misguided priorities of the university" when he is directly screwing over students.

FYI Professors unwilling to cross the picket line were denied by the university to reschedule their classes off campus.

But what you hopefully get from this is that the former head of MUFA, which represents all faculty on campus, agrees so strongly with the union's position he is willing to risk punitive action from the University. I know its frustrating to have classes cancelled, but if you are a Poli Sci student, I hope we've done a good job as a department stressing the importance of political action in order to address all kinds of social injustice, including unfair employment agreements. More importantly, that you have learned the crucial lesson that one should question authority. CUPE exec and BT has been questioned on their position and authority throughout this whole process, even though, they were democratically elected. I hope you all hold the University's administration to the same standard.

Stubbs had been an advocate on behalf of all students in demanding that the University revisit its priorities on spending at this campus. He knows very well the financial sitution of the University, probably better then most. I hope this causes some of you to strongly reconsider the University's position, as some of its key faculty are clearly supportive of the Union's position.

I have had Stubbs as a teacher in a seminar as well. I suspect this wasn't an easy decision for him, as he is dedicated to his students. Sometimes, we have to make hard decisions in order to achieve a better outcome for all. I applaud his courage!

Originally Posted by Eugene

However, screwing over the students was never the intended consequence.

You've been nothing but polite (which I appreciate) but I just feel like running into a wall whenever people say this.

What OTHER consequence did the union think would arise from blocking an entrance that primarily students use? What other consequences would there be to cancelling tutorials?

I like to think that I'm a ****ing idiot and even I knew beforehand that going on strike would ONLY affect the students.

Of course it was the intended consequence! It's the only way that the university might even consider listening to you guys.

Originally Posted by spyder83

I thought your stance was that this was non-constructive and we should agree to disagree? I'm assuming you've changed your position on this as well and shall therefore respond to your comments:

1. It was sarcasm, but if you would like to challenge my thoughts as well as those of my friends and co-workers, I invite you to bring some factual evidence to the table. Citing a toronto star headline that said "the recession is over" a few months ago isn't going to really cut it...if however you've talked to an econ prof or two, or some people in the industry, then I'm all ears. The fact that you won't find anyone in the industry who agrees with this, and the fact that the commerce students that have responded have agreed with me does not give you a solid footing in this area.

2. Speaking of contracts I entered into a contract stating that I would have easy access to parking today with shuttle bus service. I'm no longer getting this as I have to wait 45 min to get onto campus. Again I'm not picketing around the security office blasting music and destroying people's daily schedules.

The begining of your argument also refers to money. If $40/hr is not enough for you then you have some serious financial management issues. Please go back and read my responses to the rediculous wages being offered as I do not feel like wasting more time by repeating myself.

The university already has a good standing in terms of health sciences, engineering, business, as well as many other programs. Therefore I don't see how it isn't a "place for higher education". After being strongly recognized by various third parties for being a leader in research and innovation, I'm going to have to take the side of all these sources over one complaining person.

3. Everyday I drive in to school and I have not seen anyone have to dodge a car and I don't think anyone would attempt this with several Hamilton police standing right there along side a series of McMaster security guards. As for being sworn at, how would you like it if i picketed in front of your house and prevented you from backing out of your driveway and going to work/school? I don't think you'd be coming up to me the next day with flowers, chocolate, and a some gift certificates....also don't equate yourself to child labour because $40/hr and $40/year are really quite different (re: Math).

4. Given that your previous arguments all point towards Mac being a physical compilation of all that is eveil with its child labour, unfair wages, never listening, being consistently wrong, and nothing more then a factory producing degrees I still don't understand why you wouldn't transfer to a "better" place where you won't have to be paid so "poorly", stand outside in the cold, or deal with any of this.

5. As far as parking goes, I will take your suggestion and park on Longwood as soon as you re-imburse me for my parking costs. I look forward to your reply.

In terms of pulling a car over for swearing, I find this hard to believe as swearing isn't illegal. In fact if I was held up and mnissed a class I'd probably make it a bigger issue with my right to free speech. The purpose of having police on campus is to prevent danger, not to encourage people to smile and say have a nice day to those that are inconveniancing them. I wouldn't be suprised if the police hated the protestors just as much for making them spend the majority of their shift standing outside in the cold and rain with nothing happening.

Perhaps instead of telling everyone to seek alternatives such as councelling or even alternative parking, you should just stop inconveniancing people so we can go back to our daily lives, not having to deal with all of your problems which many of us don't agree with anyway.

I only replied because I felt there was some level of decorum being reached and someone posted that they enjoyed that.

However, at this point, I think that level of decorum has been broken.

I dont intend to respond to most of your post because I dont feel you are actually reading my responses. Dont take that as a sign that "you won" but there is not point in engaging in debate when there is clearly no desire on your part to understand our position. I have nothing but empathy for the plight of students, but I can no longer sacrifice my belief and values. I have been at the University as a grad student for 2.5 years, have been active in student politics, and can no longer stand by and watch the University run in the manner it does. That may be a totally unacceptable rationale for you, but that is all I have to offer.

However, I would like to to note that I called all people, including picketers to be respectful.

And you should know, I witness the ticket, it was for harassment. And there are several documented cases of people rushing the line, even with police present. You can contact the CUPE strike office for proof or campus police, as both are keeping a record.

Originally Posted by JMerolli

You guys are all wrong. Thank god its not an exam question I am marking.

My response has always been that it should not be TA's taking concessions for the University's adminstration. Cuts may have to be made, but priority should be given to high quality education over empty underground parking lots or unwanted campuses.

Richard Stubbs, a professor in Poli Sci and former President of MUFA (McMaster University Faculty Association) who also sits on the Senate, wrote a great article on the misguided priorities of the university.

http://www.thespec.com/article/503831

In regards to tuition, while it can't sky rocket (since its capped on 4%) whether or not we take concessions, I know from meetings I have sat on with the President of the University, they intend to continue to take 4% and indeed, before the strike was even called (over a month prior) he noted that they would be pressuring the province to increase the tutition increase cap to 8% for undergrads (which is what grads pay). Your MSU reps can confirm this. While I am against this increases, my point has always been that if they University is going to increase tuition, should at least some of that go to improving the quality of education?

This includes, hiring tenure-track professors over CLA's and sessionals and supporting graduate education. Please read my above post to understand why its important to support graduate, especially PhD education for the sake of your own degrees and above all, knowledge creation, the heart of Acedemia. Without our original research, there would be nothing to teach all of you. Your degrees are intended to give you advantage over other people, because you have access to the newest and most cutting edge research and knowledge. You need scholars to produce that knowledge first.

I could go on about class sizes, but I think thats been said over and over again. If you dont accept that tutorial size does impact your education I have nothing else to add other then the fact that university ranking systems do take into account class size. Indeed, im sure those rankings helped many of you pick McMaster.

You guys go on and on about how much administrators get paid, and whine about how that money doesn't go elsewhere.

Who are you, or anyone else, to say that adminsitrators get paid too much? Those people have worked very hard to get to where they are. They've been undergrads, graduates, TA's and RA's and all the rest. They've been through the "unjust" (such bollocks) working conditions that you're fighting against. Don't they deserve to be rewarded for the work they've done up until this point?

Not only that, but these are highly accomplished and well-networked people. They bring with them tons of experience and know-how in order to make this institution the best it can be. Hiring the best of the best costs money, and if the university decided to not pay the best of the best competitively, these people would simply go somewhere else where they would get the compensation they deserve. It has been said on these threads that TA's and RA's are not very replaceable. Granted, but compared to how replaceable the administrators are, replacing the TA's is peanuts.

You can whine and cry about your "unjust" working conditions all you want, but just like everyone else, you need to pay your dues in order to get somewhere in life.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

You've been nothing but polite (which I appreciate) but I just feel like running into a wall whenever people say this.

What OTHER consequence did the union think would arise from blocking an entrance that primarily students use? What other consequences would there be to cancelling tutorials?

I like to think that I'm a ****ing idiot and even I knew beforehand that going on strike would ONLY affect the students.

Of course it was the intended consequence! It's the only way that the university might even consider listening to you guys.

I think what Eugene may mean, is that we tried to avoid the strike as best we could, because we knew it would cause hardship for everyone at McMaster.

However, it is difficult to reach a collective agreement when there is no one sitting across from you.

Also, as a sign of good faith on Monday, we pulled our picket lines. We were willing to keep them down so long as negotiations continued.

However, when the University BT showed up to the table (over 1 hour late) they tabled the same contract that in their own words "would cause a strike" and ADDED conditions to it. We have tried to bargain in good faith but if the other side is a bully, there isn't much left for us to do.

I am glad to hear that you've found us overall polite.

And you should know, I witness the ticket, it was for harassment. And there are several documented cases of people rushing the line, even with police present. You can contact the CUPE strike office for proof or campus police, as both are keeping a record.

Harassment? What a joke.
I dunno, personally, my idea of harassment is a little more along the lines of walking down king and james and a crackwhore running towards me, flailing her arms, asking me if I'd like "to buy some FVCKING MARIJUANA" (yes, she yelled it), and then calling me a ***** and following me to the bustop after I said no thanks.

If I paid taxes, I'd be annoyed that my tax dollars went to cops standing around giving out tickets for people showing their dislike at messing with their education, time, and money.

Originally Posted by JMerolli

I only replied because I felt there was some level of decorum being reached and someone posted that they enjoyed that.

However, at this point, I think that level of decorum has been broken.

I dont intend to respond to most of your post because I dont feel you are actually reading my responses. Dont take that as a sign that "you won" but there is not point in engaging in debate when there is clearly no desire on your part to understand our position. I have nothing but empathy for the plight of students, but I can no longer sacrifice my belief and values. I have been at the University as a grad student for 2.5 years, have been active in student politics, and can no longer stand by and watch the University run in the manner it does. That may be a totally unacceptable rationale for you, but that is all I have to offer.

However, I would like to to note that I called all people, including picketers to be respectful.

And you should know, I witness the ticket, it was for harassment. And there are several documented cases of people rushing the line, even with police present. You can contact the CUPE strike office for proof or campus police, as both are keeping a record.

I read your responses, however they don't answer any of my questions. Here are the question that have been, side-stepped and left unanswered that I have posed multiple times:

1. Why should I park off campus when I've had to save up $100s for campus parking? How do you have the right to block ME from accessing something I have paid for?

2. I am not taking the university's side but how can you have the right to bring up financial problems when you are making $40/hr. There are tons of people like myself working multiple jobs at times, all for minimum wage and are BARELY getting by, all while going to school full time.

3. That's like me saying for every hour your picketing outside of McMaster I'm going to go to kill a baby kitten. Now it's all your fault that baby kittens are dieing!! Stop protesting!! OMG!!! What have you done??

Thank god this isn't an exam question because you haven't even answered it.....

Originally Posted by Taunton

You guys go on and on about how much administrators get paid, and whine about how that money doesn't go elsewhere.

Who are you, or anyone else, to say that adminsitrators get paid too much? Those people have worked very hard to get to where they are. They've been undergrads, graduates, TA's and RA's and all the rest. They've been through the "unjust" (such bollocks) working conditions that you're fighting against. Don't they deserve to be rewarded for the work they've done up until this point?

Not only that, but these are highly accomplished and well-networked people. They bring with them tons of experience and know-how in order to make this institution the best it can be. Hiring the best of the best costs money, and if the university decided to not pay the best of the best competitively, these people would simply go somewhere else where they would get the compensation they deserve. It has been said on these threads that TA's and RA's are not very replaceable. Granted, but compared to how replaceable the administrators are, replacing the TA's is peanuts.

You can whine and cry about your "unjust" working conditions all you want, but just like everyone else, you need to pay your dues in order to get somewhere in life.

Ben, that is an interesting comment. In fact, my dad, who is a small-business owner, who has paid his dues had an interesting retort for that - so I will not claim its my own.

When I mentioned Peter Georges 1.5 million golden handshake (ie retirement bonus - so on top of his already generous pension), my dad replied, "They didnt need to give him that. He would have accepted the job anyway. Its not the same as the private sectors, there is a level of prestige and acclaim that comes with those jobs that are priceless. Thats why people do them anyway. If all he cared about was money, he'd be in the private sector."

Now my dad and I don't agree on much, but I have to applaud him on this one.

Also, you should now, that the point is, overtime, the financial support and working conditions of TAs have in fact eroded. Obviously, its never been a lucrative endevour, but we can't let this continue.

Originally Posted by spyder83

sorry jackie...telling a commerce student the recession is over is asking for a response...its like saying pi equals exactly 3

<--- Mathematical physicist. And to a first order approximation, Pi is 3.

As for the recession being over
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/0...-recovery.html

I never said we weren't still in rough economic times, but by the strict definition of a recession, it is over.

Originally Posted by talues

<--- Mathematical physicist. And to a first order approximation, Pi is 3.

As for the recession being over
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/0...-recovery.html

I never said we weren't still in rough economic times, but by the strict definition of a recession, it is over.

Bank of Canada is so not a reliable source.

Originally Posted by spyder83

I read your responses, however they don't answer any of my questions. Here are the question that have been, side-stepped and left unanswered that I have posed multiple times:

1. Why should I park off campus when I've had to save up $100s for campus parking? How do you have the right to block ME from accessing something I have paid for?

2. I am not taking the university's side but how can you have the right to bring up financial problems when you are making $40/hr. There are tons of people like myself working multiple jobs at times, all for minimum wage and are BARELY getting by, all while going to school full time.

3. That's like me saying for every hour your picketing outside of McMaster I'm going to go to kill a baby kitten. Now it's all your fault that baby kittens are dieing!! Stop protesting!! OMG!!! What have you done??

Thank god this isn't an exam question because you haven't even answered it.....

1. We aren't blocking you, we are delaying you. So its up to you if you want to wait in the line.

2. Again, I point to the limits on our work hours. We are NOT ALLOWED to work more then 10 hours a week at ANY job. The University can sanction us for that. So our yearly salary is under 10,000. Which once you subtract our tuition is not much, considering what I have outlined is expected from us to complete the program. Plus, we are happy with our wages, what we are concerned about is the erosion of our take home pay, which is affected by tution increases. We want protection from that.

3. Im not sure what that statement is in response to so I can't follow your logic.
I think you are arguing we are punishing innocent victims. If I was extreme is comparing us to child labour - which i agree is extreme but it was just the easier reference - i think comparing what we are doing to killing kittens is just as extreme. All I have to say to that really is, we are victims, along with you.

Thankfully my supervisors don't agree with you on my ability to write exam answers!

Originally Posted by talues

<--- Mathematical physicist. And to a first order approximation, Pi is 3.

As for the recession being over
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/0...-recovery.html

I never said we weren't still in rough economic times, but by the strict definition of a recession, it is over.

Two things here:

1. Official 3rd quarter results come out Dec. 1st. So far were still in a recession as only predictions have been made. Past numbers can be found here: http://www.tradingeconomics. com/Ec...x?Symbol=CA D

2. The purpose of my comment was to illustrate why the people protesting should be lucky to have jobs in this type of economy, as proven not only by other posts including yours stating rough economic times, but also the majority of the comments from the CBC article you just posted.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

You've been nothing but polite (which I appreciate) but I just feel like running into a wall whenever people say this.

What OTHER consequence did the union think would arise from blocking an entrance that primarily students use? What other consequences would there be to cancelling tutorials?

I like to think that I'm a ****ing idiot and even I knew beforehand that going on strike would ONLY affect the students.

Of course it was the intended consequence! It's the only way that the university might even consider listening to you guys.

Thank you for your kind words.

And, you are right, maybe I am being naive and have been seeing things through my naive view. I have been saying, to other union members, that I personally think if the union doesn't like the employer's treatment/offer, withdrawing our labour sounds like fair game to me, but I personally don't like causing inconvenience to others (if not worse). The counter argument was, and I have to agree (somewhat), that we are in a society where no one will pay attention to a crowd if they are just standing on the side of the roads and sidewalks holding signs, and that a picket line is required to really make our presence known. (sigh)

Originally Posted by JMerolli

2. Again, I point to the limits on our work hours. We are NOT ALLOWED to work more then 10 hours a week at ANY job. The University can sanction us for that. So our yearly salary is under 10,000. Which once you subtract our tuition is not much, considering what I have outlined is expected from us to complete the program. Plus, we are happy with our wages, what we are concerned about is the erosion of our take home pay, which is affected by tution increases. We want protection from that.

Are you fighting to get rid of this rule? Have you asked for it to be removed?

Originally Posted by lawleypop

If I paid taxes, I'd be annoyed that my tax dollars went to cops standing around giving out tickets for people showing their dislike at messing with their education, time, and money.

I do pay some taxes, and I'm annoyed at people who attend government subsidized institutes of higher education not to learn, but merely to obtain a degree so that they can claim they've learned.

But hey, nothing I can do about that, right?