That was actually an interesting read. I'm surprised that it takes longer to complete graduate studies in Humanities and Social Sciences.

The 5 years for biology wasn't really suprising since there may be issues with animals breeding and eating their children :|.

The way I see the dispute is that it is not primarily about the wages (again, through my naive eyes). I am sure the TA/RAs getting $1500-1600 a month, including myself, will tell you that the paycheck is very, very much appreciated. I do tell myself often, hey, I'm not doing too bad for someone that's still in school.

Part of the emphasis of the current dispute is to protect whom can receive the opportunity to receive that paycheck, to continue to fund one's living through school.

As kleung pointed out, the problem is that the situation for a typical student varies drastically from department to department, and unfortunate the fact that the union encompasses all these people means they're trying to find a blanket solution that works for everybody. I agree that a one-size-fits-all solution is not the most efficient, but I think the union is trying to do its best given the situation.

I believe the large standard deviation and the fact that there isn't really an universal "norm" even among the union members is the source the many differences in opinions.

Originally Posted by kleung

This is just another example of the major differences between the faculties represented by the Union.

In Science, Engineering, Health Sci, and Business, most people finish pretty close to when they are supposed to.

In Humanities and Soc. Sci., the average time to completion is longer.

http://www.mcmaster.ca/graduate/timecom.pdf

Knowing that your funding is going to end at a fixed date is a very good motivator to get your research done.

Thanks for the document kleung. I've been been wanting to find it again for a while now.

Originally Posted by Eugene

As kleung pointed out, the problem is that the situation for a typical student varies drastically from department to department, and unfortunate the fact that the union encompasses all these people means they're trying to find a blanket solution that works for everybody. I agree that a one-size-fits-all solution is not the most efficient, but I think the union is trying to do its best given the situation.

I believe the large standard deviation and the fact that there isn't really an universal "norm" even among the union members is the source the many differences in opinions.

Agreed. The union is not the best way to deal with this particular situation. In other words, they should drop it, and this should be something dealt with in some other way on a case-by-case basis (which I believe was the situation in the previous contract, n'est pas?)

This is where my ignorance on the subject shows. It didn't occur to me this was a possibility, thinking since it's a collective bargaining it would be strictly an union-employer thing. I wasn't aware of the situation for the last contract, but if that's a possibility, hmm....

Originally Posted by Eugene

This is where my ignorance on the subject shows. It didn't occur to me this was a possibility, thinking since it's a collective bargaining it would be strictly an union-employer thing. I wasn't aware of the situation for the last contract, but if that's a possibility, hmm....

I could be wrong, but the previous contract allowed for PhD students to get TAships, but they needed to specially apply and be accepted by the department in which they were working.

Basically, they weren't considered unless they could show reasons why they should be. Fair enough in my opinion.

Originally Posted by JMerolli

More importantly, 5th and 6th PhD are not elligable for most grants.

Kathy, we are offered our TAship as part of our funding for graduate studies. Its refered to as the "basic funding" often. I will try to track down my offer letter, so you can see it first hand. This money is intended to support me through my research. The university is only now maintaining they are seperate because its suits their interests. They are underminding and ignoring the basis upon which graduate studies has operated for decades.

Originally Posted by Taunton

One of my professors has been taking issue with this. You're supposed to be finished your PhD in four years. Why should you be rewarded for going over time?

If you take an extra year of undergrad because you weren't able to finish in three or four years, do you get special rewards for that 5th year? Nope. PhD students shouldn't be any different. You're not supposed to be there for five years... the world's not a forgiving place.

My Stats TA told me the exact same thing in tutorial today, and I was going to post that if you hadn't beaten me to it

He also explained that while he thought that there were definite changes that he would like to see in the offer, he found CUPE's demands to be so ridiculous that he couldn't in good conscience support the strike. He also pointed out that some real progress might have been made in bargaining if CUPE had not presented such ridiculous proposals right off the bat.

I'd also like to point out that the point "we are not asking for higher wages" has been brought up quite a lot. Keep in mind that CUPE was pushing for a 44% increase in wages for undergraduates.

Originally Posted by JMerolli

I just wanted to note that we are asking to maintain our current benefits levels. And for those who think we are spoiled our plans includes

one claim of up to 250 every 24 months for vision care
100 per annum for childcare
100 UHIP rebate

I am not complaning but its not like we have some crazy generous plan either - especially in regards to childcare.

Also, while its true we all have awesome grades, that doesn't make grants very easy to get. Compounding that is the fact that certain governments have not prioritized funding for graduate studies and there have been cuts to those programs over the last few years.

More importantly, 5th and 6th PhD are not elligable for most grants.

Kathy, we are offered our TAship as part of our funding for graduate studies. Its refered to as the "basic funding" often. I will try to track down my offer letter, so you can see it first hand. This money is intended to support me through my research. The university is only now maintaining they are seperate because its suits their interests. They are underminding and ignoring the basis upon which graduate studies has operated for decades.

The money you make from being a TA is meant to help you pay for tuition and living expenses. That doesn't mean you are being paid to be a student. You are being paid to be a TA, and Mac is assuming you will probably use that money to help pay for school.

There are jobs on campus for undergrads called Work-Study and McWork that are similar to this. They are offered to low/no income students (like me) to help pay for school. The basis of getting this job is through OSAP, which means I was able to get this job to help me pay for school. I'm a project assistant and I get paid by Mac through the Work-Study program. Though I applied via OSAP and I'm getting money to help me pay for school, I am NOT being paid to be a student. I am being paid to be a project assistant.

I don't think it's strictly true that Work-Study and McWork are for low-income or no-income students. All you have to do is apply to OSAP. I don't collect OSAP and I don't come from a poor family, but I've still been able to apply to these jobs just by applying for OSAP.

They have a supplementary application for people who don't get OSAP - I filled it out last year, and got denied approval because my dad makes too much money (They ask for tax info). Part of the summer one includes a budget for the summer. My expenses for the summer (rent, food, etc.) came to about $1600, if I remember correctly, and I had $500, and no job at the time, and I still wasn't approved, even though SOTA really wanted to hire me to work in the theatre.

Originally Posted by Taunton

One of my professors has been taking issue with this. You're supposed to be finished your PhD in four years. Why should you be rewarded for going over time?

If you take an extra year of undergrad because you weren't able to finish in three or four years, do you get special rewards for that 5th year? Nope. PhD students shouldn't be any different. You're not supposed to be there for five years... the world's not a forgiving place.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for repeating this!!! My family and partner cannot believe that this is an issue (all coming from having PhDs and others, like I've previously mentioned)...

Originally Posted by daisy

(all coming from having PhDs and others, like I've previously mentioned)...

-.- -.-

I go back home (a three hour commute) every other weekend to guard a pool for about 7-10 hours beginning at 5 am on Saturday and Sunday. I do this because I realize that I need the money to pay my rent and cover my school expenses, as I know that no one is going to PAY ME to be a student. Some TA's, on the other hand, seem to believe that they are being compensated for being a grad student. No, you are being compensated for being a TA and doing your job. The belief that you are entitled this money is insane.... as a grad student you are entitled to a chance to TA, NOT to be payed for the PRIVILEGE of being a student. Get a grip on reality!

I'm confident the results of this settlement vote will show how intelligent and realistic the average TA is and how wacko this union is. As for the earlier mention that a labor association of university faculty wrote to support the strike, well I'm sure they'd support a strike even if the bargaining team was asking for daily fellatio breaks. The employer will ALWAYS be the bad guy to these people!

Actually for a M.Sc. in Biology, they're given financial support through a graduate stipend. M.Sc. students are guaranteed support for 2 years and Ph.D. students are guaranteed support for 4 years.

The guaranteed annual minimum salaries (09/10) are what I listed on the previous page:
$19 500 - M.Sc.
$21 500 - Ph.D.
(edit: these are the salaries for grad students without any sort of scholarship)

50% of this salary comes from being a full TA (10h/week, both terms) and the other 50% receive funding from the supervisor. Senior students, such as those in their final years of their PhD can opt for an internal scholarship instead of TA'ing.

From this salary, they pay their tuition.

This is why most biology TAs aren't striking.

... So, yes, they are being paid as students. They give back to the university through: their research, which is the most important from the university's perspective, and TA'ing.

Source: Biology 4C09 Graduate Scholarship PowerPoint (Dr. Xu).

Zombiejesus (interesting name ). I believe that most TAs and graduate students probably are realistic and have "smarts" ( different than being great at academics, including graduate school). The union is not making this very obvious...