Originally Posted by andrew22

-.- -.-

Ha...what can I say?! I have a raging migraine . The opinion of which I speak was shared with me by mypartner (PhD), and my large family --- which consists of many members with...you guessed it!!!!! PhDs!!!!!! . (the "others" consist of MDs, law degrees and MBAs). What can I say? Huge family with a thirst and drive for higher education. And a hell of a lot of sacrifice and damn hard work.

Hope this makes it clearer

Here are the other program's stipends in case you were as curious as I was:

Philosophy (2009/10): the stipend for a full year T.A. for an in-program student is $9,880.00
Biochemistry/ Biomedical (2008-2009):
$19,240 per year for M.Sc. and $21,240 per year for Ph.D.
Math/Stats (2008/2009): $15,600 for MSc students and $20,380 for Math PhD students
Political Science: Full teaching assistantships pay approximately $8,736.
English: based off of the TA-ship ($ amount unavailable on McMaster Website)
Engineering: McMaster University has adopted a policy of ensuring that all full-time Ph.D. students receive at least $17,500 per year. (No info on M.Sc.)

Note that I've excluded any scholarships to keep things consistent between faculties.

Originally Posted by daisy

Ha...what can I say?! I have a raging migraine . The opinion of which I speak was shared with me by mypartner (PhD), and my large family --- which consists of many members with...you guessed it!!!!! PhDs!!!!!! . (the "others" consist of MDs, law degrees and MBAs). What can I say? Huge family with a thirst and drive for higher education. And a hell of a lot of sacrifice and damn hard work.

Hope this makes it clearer

lolo but why are you telling the internet?

Originally Posted by Jay

Here are the other program's stipends in case you were as curious as I was:

...
Math/Stats (2008/2009): $15,600 for MSc students and $20,380 for Math PhD students
...

Note that I've excluded any scholarships to keep things consistent between faculties.

I don't know about PhD students. As someone in the MSc boat (getting the baseline, $15,600 given that I didn't win any NSERC/OGS funding), I want to point out that $8000 of this figure is a scholarship. Not everyone gets it, and some only have the $7,600 TA value.

(And also that these are the same as the 2009/2010 rates).

This is to address any "Why the heck do math students need so much?" impulses...which I seem to get all the time.

Can anyone confirm that the strike continues tomorrow? I have a midterm and planning to drive to school...

Originally Posted by Taunton

One of my professors has been taking issue with this. You're supposed to be finished your PhD in four years. Why should you be rewarded for going over time?

If you take an extra year of undergrad because you weren't able to finish in three or four years, do you get special rewards for that 5th year? Nope. PhD students shouldn't be any different. You're not supposed to be there for five years... the world's not a forgiving place.

The problem is that these aren't quite direct comparisons.

Pretend I'm a '5th year PhD student' who hasn't completed their thesis and is spilling over into extra time.

During these 4 years of my life, any and all research, which McMaster demands I document and document well, is the property of McMaster and not myself. Infact, McMaster dictates (as does any university I'm sure) that the only thing which I may claim as my own, is my completed, published thesis paper (which is also jointly McMaster's property).

So the reason it isn't about being 'forgiving' is because McMaster still benefits from research I would do in my fifth year...and thus should have to pay for it, given that it will become their property.

Not to mention...think realistically about this for a moment. Suppose you've got say, a medical researcher working on a brilliant cure for cancer, but 'just isn't ready to publish' after 4 years. Should Mac cancel all their funding and restrict their access to the labs, because they haven't met their '4 year deadline'?

Well no...because remember, the fruits of researchers' labour benefits everyone at some time or another.


Remember...it's not just 'slackers' who don't finish in 4 years...it's also people with very grand, large-scale projects that are rather time-consuming, and research-intensive.

Originally Posted by hollie012

Can anyone confirm that the strike continues tomorrow? I have a midterm and planning to drive to school...

I have a midterm saturday morning and my prof has sent out emails announcing to people to drive to school early and to expect longer lines than usual, so I'll expect they're still on. I really wouldn't risk it.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

T
So the reason it isn't about being 'forgiving' is because McMaster still benefits from research I would do in my fifth year...and thus should have to pay for it, given that it will become their property.

Not to mention...think realistically about this for a moment. Suppose you've got say, a medical researcher working on a brilliant cure for cancer, but 'just isn't ready to publish' after 4 years. Should Mac cancel all their funding and restrict their access to the labs, because they haven't met their '4 year deadline'?

Well no...because remember, the fruits of researchers' labour benefits everyone at some time or another.


Remember...it's not just 'slackers' who don't finish in 4 years...it's also people with very grand, large-scale projects that are rather time-consuming, and research-intensive.

Of course it's not just 'slackers' who don't finish in 4 years, but that's not the issue. The issue is trying to guarantee that these people can get TAships, which by the previous system they weren't guaranteed, but could access, given they showed reasons why they needed it/why they went overtime.

I think this would be a fair compromise.

Originally Posted by Jay

Actually for a M.Sc. in Biology, they're given financial support through a graduate stipend. M.Sc. students are guaranteed support for 2 years and Ph.D. students are guaranteed support for 4 years.

The guaranteed annual minimum salaries (09/10) are what I listed on the previous page:
$19 500 - M.Sc.
$21 500 - Ph.D.
(edit: these are the salaries for grad students without any sort of scholarship)

50% of this salary comes from being a full TA (10h/week, both terms) and the other 50% receive funding from the supervisor. Senior students, such as those in their final years of their PhD can opt for an internal scholarship instead of TA'ing.

From this salary, they pay their tuition.

This is why most biology TAs aren't striking.

... So, yes, they are being paid as students. They give back to the university through: their research, which is the most important from the university's perspective, and TA'ing.

Source: Biology 4C09 Graduate Scholarship PowerPoint (Dr. Xu).

Except that the TAs not in science and engineering really shouldn't be complaining about it since it is field-related. Financial assistance does come from endowment funds which is obviously larger for those in the science and engineering field. If you are a CEO of a company and get less than an NHL player does, you cant simply go to the government to complain about the income disparity. People in different fields get different range of incomes, that's inevitable.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I have a midterm saturday morning and my prof has sent out emails announcing to people to drive to school early and to expect longer lines than usual, so I'll expect they're still on. I really wouldn't risk it.

no one is on Cootes right now, so Im hoping thats the same for sterling!

Originally Posted by Taunton

Of course it's not just 'slackers' who don't finish in 4 years, but that's not the issue. The issue is trying to guarantee that these people can get TAships, which by the previous system they weren't guaranteed, but could access, given they showed reasons why they needed it/why they went overtime.

I think this would be a fair compromise.

Sure that'd be fair, to an extent...I misunderstood exactly what you were trying to say, because the actual situation is rather different:

In the previous system, going back about 10 years, if you're not done in 4 years you're 'kicked out' and have to finance your own research:

(http://sciencecareers.scienc emag.o...27911520 4494)

And currently, you can apply for 'emergency funding' which only lasts you a few months...I don't think a TA-ship is in the mix at all. I definitely know if you run overtime with your Masters, you're forbidden from TAing (I've had that point drilled into my head :p) and I'd imagine it works the same for PhDs.


I was simply saying that doesn't feel right to me, since McMaster, the community, and the student all benefit from additional funding if it requires that much time. The 5th year PhD student has to pay McMaster some large amount of tuition, for no real reason, and on top of it, must fund their own research (which in some departments, can be quite costly).

So in some sense, you're right and that a 'fair' compromise would be to let it be on a case by case basis...however, at the same time it feels as though a 'fair' compromise would at least be the opportunity for such a student to be able to work at McMaster, 'for free.' And what I mean by that is, give them a job like a TA-ship which covers their tuition fees, (which they're pretty much paying just to have McMaster's name at that point).

Originally Posted by ayinaim

Except that the TAs not in science and engineering really shouldn't be complaining about it since it is field-related. Financial assistance does come from endowment funds which is obviously larger for those in the science and engineering field. If you are a CEO of a company and get less than an NHL player does, you cant simply go to the government to complain about the income disparity. People in different fields get different range of incomes, that's inevitable.

I was just pointing out that the amount that they actually receive is much less than that $16000 figure being tossed around. When you look at the $8000 figure from TA'ing (from Mike's post), after the money goes through tuition ... and assuming $350/month per rent with utilities included x 12 months = $4200, then it may be difficult to make ends meet. Keep in mind that graduate students "study" all year long.

I'm definitely not saying that graduate students should be able to support families off of their stipends as I think that's asking too much, but as I said earlier, it's in the university's best interest that graduate students devote as much time as possible to their research for the reputation of the school and the department. This way, they can obtain external scholarships and many departments often brag about them: "We have X SSHRC winners and Y number of OGS winners".

But anyways, graduate students aren't looking for an increase in pay, but better benefits.

Originally Posted by zombiejesus

I go back home (a three hour commute) every other weekend to guard a pool for about 7-10 hours beginning at 5 am on Saturday and Sunday. I do this because I realize that I need the money to pay my rent and cover my school expenses, as I know that no one is going to PAY ME to be a student. Some TA's, on the other hand, seem to believe that they are being compensated for being a grad student. No, you are being compensated for being a TA and doing your job. The belief that you are entitled this money is insane.... as a grad student you are entitled to a chance to TA, NOT to be payed for the PRIVILEGE of being a student. Get a grip on reality!

I'm confident the results of this settlement vote will show how intelligent and realistic the average TA is and how wacko this union is. As for the earlier mention that a labor association of university faculty wrote to support the strike, well I'm sure they'd support a strike even if the bargaining team was asking for daily fellatio breaks. The employer will ALWAYS be the bad guy to these people!

In the sciences and engineering at least, we'll get about half of our money from our supervisor. This is because the hours we work do not allow for part time jobs (talking about working 55-80 hrs a week in the lab in most cases).

Having said that, any students considering graduate school have to look at their situation. If they are not guaranteed a TA or if their potential supervisor has some sketchy things going on (graduated no or few PhD students, few publications, their students have fear in their eyes...seriously, you can tell) and they still decide to come here, that is a choice of theirs. But the expectation that things will get better for them afterwards and they will just hope things fall into place is ridiculous.

Here are my biggest issues:

A bargaining survey was setup back in march to ask people what their priorities were. The first few questions deal with what program you're in, your student status (undergrad, grad, masters, PhD, full/part time) and so on. I inquired on the CUPE blog about the number of surveys that were completed. Last I checked, there was no response other than somebody who seemed to talk about it as if they knew, and they just said "a small number" were completed. My first problem is that the union exec and bargaining team are completely aware of where the feedback comes from, and they will know that the majority of undergrads, along with grad students in science and engineering don't fill these out, yet we're lumped in with them by simply being a TA.

The strike mandate vote...this was an issue a few years ago. This is sold as a bargaining tool. The first point about this is always "this is not a vote to go on strike". this is true. however, it should be followed by "but if you vote to give the strike mandate, you won't be asked again if you want to strike. we'll be the ones to tell you." and see what the old .org site says about FAQ on the strike mandate vote.

http://www.cupe3906.org/index.php?op...ew&id= 37#Two

the last sentence reads:

If you “don’t want to go on strike” a “yes” vote is much wiser.


btw, take a screenshot if you want. i bet it won't stay up long after this. but seriously, this is extremely misleading. worse, international students who come from countries that won't be at all familiar with unions can easily be swayed to vote for this, even though the truth is that a "no" vote is the only way to assure against a strike while a "yes" vote is the only way a strike is even possible.

another thing about the strike mandate vote that I didn't realize:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_PEI4bARWY (about 1:50 into it)

"you can also vote if you've worked in the last year. so if you're not ta'ing or working in september but you did in the last year, you're still eligible to vote."

not sure why that is. this ticks me off actually.

and no numbers were released on the strike mandate vote, which is a CUPE policy (and i understand why) but again, the apathy will be known. a lot of people say "that's your fault for not voting." again, this is true. but that doesn't mean we're immune from decisions someone makes who pretends to be representing us.

a lot of people say "if only 40 % of eligible voters turn out in a national election, the prime minister is still the prime minister. it's your fault for not voting." this is true. BUT, if then only 21% of the eligible voters have chosen the leader, and they start making decisions that agree with only those 21 %, what do you think will happen? complaints, protests, public outrage, etc. the prime minister will try to change things. they'll realize they aren't representing the majority. they don't say "if you didn't vote, that's your problem." that will make people more upset.

now, i'll also add that i know someone who used to go to union meetings to represent people from their department. the idea was they would be a middle ground between the dept. TA's and the union. well, the union exec stopped listening (the impression was that it was because the views from that dept didn't match those of the exec and the other people that usually show up). instead, it became strictly one sided..."here's what you should pass on to TA's in your department" . hence a reason for some apathy.

there's a lot more too...so much more...

anyway, hopefully this will end soon. i can say this though - anyone you know that is a TA, tell them to vote!! undergrad or grad, numbers are needed. if there is a poor voter turnout, the school will not take this seriously and it wouldn't surprise me if a worse offer came out and the strike drags on. if a large number of the membership vote to reject it, then ok. the school will know it's got to do something.

if you do vote to reject the school's offer though (or know people that are) they better damn well get their butts on the picket line next week. those folks out there are spending a lot of time fighting for what they think is right. and if you agree with them on the vote, you should feel obligated to go and picket with them.

i intend on voting to accept the offer. i have gone a week without picketing or scabbing. i was hoping for this opportunity to vote before making a decision. the bargaining team didn't want us to vote on this, however, several petitions got brought forward to request that this vote happen.

again - if you know any TA's (especially undergrads) encourage them to vote. don't suggest which way to vote - just a bit unethical - but this is the way for them to express their thoughts on this.

Greg Bahun

So is it for sure going to continue into this week as well ???

=(

Originally Posted by manaya

So is it for sure going to continue into this week as well ???

=(

We don't know yet. Voting continues tomorrow.