Originally Posted by lawleypop

I'm not suggesting we do it, but when we accept them and they do nothing but shun us, then theoretically, the exact opposite of us accepting them should make them realize our presence.

And by our presence, I mean the other Canadians living in this country.

That's like an Eye for an Eye concept isn't it? And I was suggesting you wouldn't understand it because I wouldn't be able to explain it the same way Mr Glazer did. There is no competition between myself and a world Renowned Public Intellectual. The whole thing only dawned to me AFTER that lecture ended!

Reverse Psychology will NOT help anything; It sounds like a simple concept but in actuality the more we push the higher the barriers between cultures rise. Its kind of like Quicksand :S I WISH there was someway for me to explain how that works :S

Originally Posted by lawleypop

No, I highly doubt that. Anyone can go in and play. Have you not tried it? I suggest you do. I've never seen those people tell someone "no you can't play."

I didn't say huzaifa & friends should have told them they couldn't play. I'm saying if he and his friends did not like the idea of "Asians vs. Non-Asians", then they don't have to play with these people.

The problem is (as I JUST posted), they came in acting like king shit, ****ed everything around, and suddenly made it an asian vs the world thing. Instead of just "let's all play soccer!" If you don't even comprehend this logic, then this debate is at one hell of a stalemate.

So then those guys were just jerks. Fine. What does them being Korean/Asian have anything to do with them being jerks?

Now who is being racist?

Originally Posted by cowpuppy

Shun? Are you sure that's the verb you want to use? Are you sure that's what they are doing? Because there's a big difference between some immigrant coming to this country and crapping all over it's culture, and an immigrant coming to this country and being reluctant to assimilate with the culture because he/she has difficulty relating to it.

Sure, let's use shun for a lack of a better word, because I'm SURE you can decipher what I mean.

I've never had an asian introduce themselves to me.
I'm in a marketing group with two asians. I turned to them during the class and said, "Hey, wanna be in a group for this assignment?"
They didn't even acknowledge my presence till then.
During our group meetings, they don't say a single ****ing word to us. They don't help out. But they have no problem talking amongst themselves in Mandarin the entire time.

It's one thing to be timid and find it difficult to relate to something and thus are afraid to jump into it. But when other people give you the opportunity and you're still passing it up because you'd rather stay isolated with your own group, then yea, I'll call that shunning. And that's where I lose whatever sympathy I had to begin with.

Originally Posted by cowpuppy

I didn't say huzaifa & friends should have told them they couldn't play. I'm saying if he and his friends did not like the idea of "Asians vs. Non-Asians", then they don't have to play with these people.

okayyyy so what do we suggest we should have done? The field was the only field that was available. We were ALREADY there(We actually had 20+ people) we welcomed them they started the "we will only play as Asians". We actually accommodated that and told 10 people in our group to sit out to accommodate their demand and keep the game 11 vs 11; If this was a mixed pickup those 10 sitting out would have had equal probability to be on a team. Now it was limited to being on the Non-Asian team. You still don't see the point? I refuse to comment any further as it is turning into a waste of time

You guys are posting way too fast! ><

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

We never challenged them or anything;

I never said you did.

We actually welcomed them into our random collection of people from all over the world. Soccer is a sport that thrives and prides on its notion of being a worldwide sport that unites everyone together.

Oh, so I guess that's the reason why we have countries competing against each other?

It is hence against the spirit of the game itself that a group comes in and segregates itself from everyone. That is why we were offended. The same lot has been playing all summer and has equally accepted people of all ages(we have 50 year olds playing) backgrounds and skill levels without prejudice or refusing to let anyone play!

Making teams is not segregating (technically yes, but I'm assuming you mean some kind of discriminatory segregation). I've played soccer games where we had teams of "Gr. X vs. Gr. Y", or "Year X vs. Year Y", or "Class X vs. Class Y", or "Group of friends X vs. Group of friends Y". Does that mean we're being discriminatory in any way? No.It sounds like you're just bringing race into this for the sake of it.

You seem to have no clue whatsoever of what you are talking about cowpuppy. What does your Baseball/Cooking analogy have to do with anything?

I was trying to provide insight as to why these group of people declared a game of Asians vs. Non-Asians. Soccer is culturally significant in Korea and many parts of Asia, more so than in Canada. It may simply be the case that they take pride in it.

That's like an Eye for an Eye concept isn't it? And I was suggesting you wouldn't understand it because I wouldn't be able to explain it the same way Mr Glazer did. There is no competition between myself and a world Renowned Public Intellectual. The whole thing only dawned to me AFTER that lecture ended!

Reverse Psychology will NOT help anything; It sounds like a simple concept but in actuality the more we push the higher the barriers between cultures rise. Its kind of like Quicksand :S I WISH there was someway for me to explain how that works :S

Okay, my bad. I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you were actually taking a stab at my intelligence, which I thought was a tad out of line. Anywho, moving on.

Reverse Psychology doesn't always help, but giving someone a taste of their own medicine normally does. Many Canadian accept immigrants' cultures and whatnot, and for what? They make us feel like it's futile for us to even bother. I can't tell you HOW it'd help, but going off the assumption that these people are human like the rest of us, then making them realize how annoying their actions are might give em a kick in the right direction (because hey, it works for the rest of humanity).

Originally Posted by cowpuppy

I didn't say huzaifa & friends should have told them they couldn't play. I'm saying if he and his friends did not like the idea of "Asians vs. Non-Asians", then they don't have to play with these people.



So then those guys were just jerks. Fine. What does them being Korean/Asian have anything to do with them being jerks?

Now who is being racist?

And if Huzaifa&friends said, "No, we don't want to play with asians." Wouldn't that seem a little discriminatory?

Lmao. You can stop taking everything out of context now, because it's supa doopa annoying! It has nothing to do with them being jerks. The problem is their constant need to segregate themselves. Follow the ****ing conversation, for goodness sakes. I'm sick of repeating myself.

Wow.
Seriously? You STILL aren't getting the point: It is a random Pickup game. Do you even play soccer? Countries Vs Countries is not a comparison nor is classes vs Classes in this case. Its a Pickup; we show up at 5pm play for fun and no one cares about winning or losing!

And We had people from Brazil and Nigeria and Exchange Students from France in our group aka all soccer mad countries; But I NEVER see them saying "Hey let's have all the Africans together!"

Hence "Koreans are proud" notion has NO bearing. Pride has nothing to do with anything here :S

Cowpuppy, I'm almost inclined to say that you're twisting everything for shits and giggles. If that's the case, go back to 4chan.

Because some of us can actually follow each other's logic and build off of it, and counter them with legitimate arguments.

This is just a waste of time now.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Sure, let's use shun for a lack of a better word, because I'm SURE you can decipher what I mean.

I've never had an asian introduce themselves to me.
I'm in a marketing group with two asians. I turned to them during the class and said, "Hey, wanna be in a group for this assignment?"
They didn't even acknowledge my presence till then.

Stop right there.

How many people in general, regardless of ethnicity, have introduced themselves to you in whatever situations you are describing?

What percentage of the population around you is of Asian descent? You said yourself you come from a place that is predominantly white, and McMaster itself is predominantly white as well.

What proportion of the people who haven't introduced themselves to you are Asian vs. not Asian?

Do you see what I'm saying here? There aren't too many Asians here to begin with, so the fact that of the relatively few people you meet (out of ~20, 000), none are Asian, sounds more like a matter of statistics and probability.

During our group meetings, they don't say a single ****ing word to us. They don't help out. But they have no problem talking amongst themselves in Mandarin the entire time.

Again, sounds like they have not adjusted to, are unable to adjust to, or feel uncomfortable with this culture. How can you blame them for that? Maybe they can't speak English well. Maybe they don't feel confident in their ability to formulate intelligent ideas in a language that is not their own, and present them in a manner suitable to a culture that is not their own.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

And if Huzaifa&friends said, "No, we don't want to play with asians." Wouldn't that seem a little discriminatory?

Yes, but he also could have said, "we do not want to segregate our game along ethnic lines". That's not discriminatory or offensive and it's perfectly understandable.

Lmao. You can stop taking everything out of context now, because it's supa doopa annoying! It has nothing to do with them being jerks. The problem is their constant need to segregate themselves. Follow the ****ing conversation, for goodness sakes. I'm sick of repeating myself.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I was trying to provide insight as to *WHY* they might want to segregate themselves, and to show you that their intent may not be as offensive as you make it out to be. Yet you're refusing to believe that it's anything other than a case of racism.

There's a word for that. Racism.

Originally Posted by cowpuppy

Again, sounds like they have not adjusted to, are unable to adjust to, or feel uncomfortable with this culture. How can you blame them for that? Maybe they can't speak English well. Maybe they don't feel confident in their ability to formulate intelligent ideas in a language that is not their own, and present them in a manner suitable to a culture that is not their own.

Finally a logical point

That is actually an issue that gets my socio geek sense tingling!

The question therefore is that is this affecting their quality of education or their experience at McMaster? If so what efforts can be made by Tutors or the overall system to cater for that? I can totally imagine that happening! English was never the first language for me in 2008 on a social level as well!

But I was always able to be one of the frequent contributors in my tutorials because I was on my Highschool Debate team & The fact that discussions in my highschool classrooms were in English and knew more then enough about written theory to be able to say what I want. But yeah I was conscious of my accent on a social level at times; especially when some people wouldn't get what I was saying for the first 6 months.

Interesting....

Yes, but he also could have said, "we do not want to segregate our game along ethnic lines". That's not discriminatory or offensive and it's perfectly understandable.

Easier said then done!

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Cowpuppy, I'm almost inclined to say that you're twisting everything for shits and giggles. If that's the case, go back to 4chan.

Because some of us can actually follow each other's logic and build off of it, and counter them with legitimate arguments.

This is just a waste of time now.

Twisting everything? What am I twisting? What did I twist and where did I do it?

No. I'm trying to shed some light on the situation, and you're just being stubborn because you already have this ill-conceived notion of Asian people who come to this country simply to not indulge in its culture, a perspective which are unwilling to give up despite my attempts to enlighten you.

You offend me.

I play soccer a lot with my old friends from highschool, and we usually make teams like white versus asian/brown.

I'm mixed so they usually just toss a coin for me to choose what team I get put on

Originally Posted by cowpuppy

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I was trying to provide insight as to *WHY* they might want to segregate themselves, and to show you that their intent may not be as offensive as you make it out to be. Yet you're refusing to believe that it's anything other than a case of racism.

There's a word for that. Racism.

So....thinking that someone else did/said something because of racism, is in itself racist? doesn't that make your comment racist?

OMG IM RACIST NOW TOO!!!

Originally Posted by cowpuppy

Stop right there.

How many people in general, regardless of ethnicity, have introduced themselves to you in whatever situations you are describing?

What percentage of the population around you is of Asian descent? You said yourself you come from a place that is predominantly white, and McMaster itself is predominantly white as well.

What proportion of the people who haven't introduced themselves to you are Asian vs. not Asian?

Do you see what I'm saying here? There aren't too many Asians here to begin with, so the fact that of the relatively few people you meet (out of ~20, 000), none are Asian, sounds more like a matter of statistics and probability.



Again, sounds like they have not adjusted to, are unable to adjust to, or feel uncomfortable with this culture. How can you blame them for that? Maybe they can't speak English well. Maybe they don't feel confident in their ability to formulate intelligent ideas in a language that is not their own, and present them in a manner suitable to a culture that is not their own.

1) I do not count them. But I can say with certainty that I've had at least 1 "type" of every person except for asian, be friendly towards me.
2) I do not consider McMaster predominently white. O_O Maybe you do, but I certainly don't think it is. I think I've met/talked to more non-white people than I have white people.
3) And yes, I finally see what you're saying because you're not finding someway to completely and utterly convolute it.

I have not met a lot of people in general @ McMac, but I can say with conviction that I haven't met x times more white people than asian. It seems pretty even to me, especially in Commerce. For every person that I've met so far, I've never ever had an asian initiate a conversation with me. And I like to think that I'm more than accepting (I've been in the same situation, because my first language is french and I've had to be in a group full of english people) and despite it, the asians just seem to rather keep to their own.

I'm all for people keeping their culture and identity, I just find it irritating/insulting/whatever when they don't attempt to mingle. Everyone has been in this type of situation. We all adapt to it. I don't think a certain group of people should get any more excuses than other people have.

It's not as if people at Mac aren't accepting of them. We are. But from my experiences, they don't make any effort to un-segregate themselves. Which is shown in Huzaifa's soccer example. Was it really necessary to do asians vs non asians? It's not like you need to speak the same language to play soccer. Why not just mingle with other people?

Twisting everything? What am I twisting? What did I twist and where did I do it?

No. I'm trying to shed some light on the situation, and you're just being stubborn because you already have this ill-conceived notion of Asian people who come to this country simply to not indulge in its culture, a perspective which are unwilling to give up despite my attempts to enlighten you.

You offend me.

Essentially everything you've said, minus the last post before this one.

And yes, I offend many people. I tend to have that effect.

And you are mistaken. I expect everyone who comes to Canada would want to indulge in it. Why wouldn't they? It's awesome. But as I've said (repeating myself again), from my experiences at McMac, they stay in their bubble. And yes, they may have a language barrier, but for how long is that excuse valid?