Originally Posted by casey.park

Since this thread has cropped up, the Executive Board is now reconsidering the much maligned 'E'.

Thank god they're listening, even if we can't change it completely, I'd be happy enough if we made this one not generally suck as much.

it's really not just the E that needs revision!

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

I have just emailed Casey about a couple of things that I needed clarification about, but ONCE again I disagree with the notion that Insiders isn't an official source/arena since it is no longer an MSU club, that personally for me is a loophole that is being exploited.

Just like that President from a few years ago, elected officials in my opinion should make every effort to facilitate the pursuit of student opinion. You can't just have things your way and ask people to go to the rudimentary and nonexistant(in terms of views) MSU forums or ask people to email/call you, I don't think everyone will go through the effort of doing that. Even if hypothetically they do, how many emails can a person handle? 100? 200? Even that is 1-2% of the student body. It would work much better if things are done over here so that a potential audience of 6000+ can read and discuss and explain stuff to each other.

This is getting ridiculous. MacInsiders is NOT the place for us to go anytime we need student opinion. It's one of many places available to get some student opinion, but emphasizing that 6000 users are on this site is pointless. There may be 6000 users on the site, but there's:

a) no guarantee that any percentage of those 6000 are current McMaster students

b) no guarantee that any significant proportion of those 6000 students are actively using the site, reading posts and responding to them

c) no guarantee that out of those 6000 possible users, each one is unique (ie it's possible that one person could have more than one account).

etc etc. There's too many problems with this. In experimental design, these are called confounds, and there's too many to control here. It would make the results not even close to scientifically accurate, and quite frankly, continuing to emphasize that "macinsiders is the best place for the MSU to sample student opinion" is arguing a moot point. I'll argue against it every time.

To be quite frank, the community that uses MacInsiders the most (ie the people we would be contacting and sampling from) are very much an online clique with very much the same interests and opinions (with few exceptions, mostly on controversial topics).

I'm sorry, but I've read this from you like 3 or 4 times now, and it's just getting on my nerves.

Put yourself in my shoes. what do you think it looks like when I see elected officials discount my opinion because of the venue I happen to feel like expressing it in. I am new to macinsiders but already I feel it imperitive to be defending it. I don't care about how many people could be reading it. It's my opinion. It should be respected as that regardless of the venue it is given in.

Moreover, it's not like I am on here expecting you guys to read it. Clearly, you're on here on your own accord. It IS student feedback and one of many sources for it.

I also resent the thought of this 'clique' label. Once again, change your shoes and look at yourselves. Right now, I have no less reason to spread the same label to you. However, I would rather not discount opinions because of prejudicial labels.

The problem here is simple - the logo. Fix it. There's your valuable student feedback. Moving on..

Design and branding in a VERY lucrative business for a reason. A company's image is represented by the logo on it's letterhead just as much as the value of it's stock. Coca Cola, McDonald's, Nike, Starbucks, and MANY other institutions have brands valued at billions of dollars, and a large part is due to the design work.

The logo IS a big deal, and the name IS a big deal. It is the public image of our bar, and serves as an example of the professional, or lack thereof, within the MSU. Moreover, the debacles that have accompanied these are examples of the ineptitude of the SRA.

See, the problem here isn't with individual members. The problem lies in the institution itself. The members of the SRA have taken it upon themselves to legislate the operations of a business. They have empowered the Executive Board to do so, and have empowered the Board of Directors.

However, I don't understand why. The BoD was elected to perform a great deal of duties, and the Executive Board exists to manage the day-to-day operations of the service.

The key word here is manage. Not run. Yet, the Executive Board has somehow taken it upon themselves to argue about logos, names, decisions about the executive of a service and much more. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the EB is going to be deciding what the menu of 1280 is going to be.

This is a gross abuse of power, and makes no sense. Why is the MSU keeping a retinue of full-time staff, all hired based on their experience, if all the decisions can be made by a 9-member team comprised of 5 students, and 4 elected while students.

When we were in the process of making up Vishal Tiwari's campaign, one day was spent brainstorming at Quarters over a pitcher and dinner. Vishal poured me a glass that was half head. The joke at that moment became that we had a slogan for his campaign: "Vishal Tiwari: Can't pour a beer, can't run a bar, won't every try to!" Yet, all I see is a bunch of people my age, and younger, telling a 30-something year old restaurant professional how to run his business.

The best part is, when students hear about it, they are quick to say "well if he was any good, he wouldn't have lost all that money." But here's the kicker, he is good. He used to have excellent profits at his previous job. But back then, the decisions were left to him, and not to a collection of student leaders.

There are nine people on the Executive Board. All of whom know of my abilities as a designer including three of whom have been on a rep team of mine where I made all the designs, and three of whom I ran a Presidential Campaign with (where I designed everything in the campaign).

Not a single person of those nine ever asked for my opinion on anything related to the logo. There however, was one person who did: the full-time manager of Quarters/1280 who had heard that I liked designing stuff. He showed me a lot of the same mockups shown the Executive Board, and asked my opinion.

I was frank: I liked some, and hated others. However, I felt as if the designer who made his mockups was skilled enough to deliver a logo. I still feel that. I think that the logo presented by Jeff Green was something the designer made after being backed into a corner with unreasonable demands.

This is because of the nine people on the EB, none of whom have experience running a business, branding a business, or understanding the intricacies of marketing and advertising.

Hell, I freelance in that field, have made money in web marketing, read marketing and advertising journals and publications on a daily basis and still think that I am a rookie.

So why are we letting 9 people make decisions like these? Why are they not letting the full-time manager they employ make this decision. This should have been a decision made by him, and rubber stamped by the EB to make sure that they understood what was going on, and that they understood their lack of professional experience.

Back to the crux of the matter though. This is the problem with the SRA. We have 31 students, and 4 people who essentially are students, preoccupied with running a business, while putting their job on the back burner.

All I want from my representatives (all 6 of them as I am in Social Science) is to vote on matters in a manner that best represents the students of Social Science. Not students of Anthro, or Econ, or Poli Sci; but students of Social Science.

I don't want to see SRA solidarity, because this goes against the job of a member. I do not expect that a student in Health Science or Nursing wants the same things as me all the time. I want to hear that my Soc Sci representatives fought hard for myself, and my faculty mates. I want to see actual democracy, and not people winning motions because their friend in a different faculty made a good point about how it affects their constituents.

We do not elect you to take care of the students in other faculties. They have their own reps for that, and every student at this school understands that. Take care of us, and you won't see a backlash. Take care of each other and you see the results.

E-mails do not encourage lively debate. It is a dead end question collector that may never take action. Are you able to answer ALL queries posted in an e-mail? Are you able to reply to all your e-mails? Unless the MSU Website had some sort of opportunity for interaction ASIDE from e-mails and the blog, then the "legitimacy" that you look for is sorely lacking.

Ben, tons of first year students use this website to ask questions. If all they see from the MSU is "e-mail us! this is the only way your questions are most valid!", then the MSU would simply be seen as an unreachable, out of touch, and extremely bureaucratic student group (which it is not). To call these incoming students part of an online clique because they are curious and they see MacInsiders as a way to be involved at MAC before they start in September is the worst message to send and shows that if they voice an opinion or raise a question anyway, they will only be faced with animosity from the same people we elect.

Lastly, regarding "it's just getting on my nerves" - What a thoroughly disappointing comment. huzaifa has not attacked or been malicious in his posts. He has actually posted some of the most insightful and well-researched comments, and has even gone the "MSU e-mail" route. Your low level of tolerance for proper and well-reasoned comments shows nothing but disdain for anything, and anyone, who goes against the grain.

Originally Posted by myoozik

E-mails do not encourage lively debate. It is a dead end question collector that may never take action. Are you able to answer ALL queries posted in an e-mail? Are you able to reply to all your e-mails? Unless the MSU Website had some sort of opportunity for interaction ASIDE from e-mails and the blog, then the "legitimacy" that you look for is sorely lacking.

Ben, tons of first year students use this website to ask questions. If all they see from the MSU is "e-mail us! this is the only way your questions are most valid!", then the MSU would simply be seen as an unreachable, out of touch, and extremely bureaucratic student group (which it is not). To call these incoming students part of an online clique because they are curious and they see MacInsiders as a way to be involved at MAC before they start in September is the worst message to send and shows that if they voice an opinion or raise a question anyway, they will only be faced with animosity from the same people we elect.

Lastly, regarding "it's just getting on my nerves" - What a thoroughly disappointing comment. huzaifa has not attacked or been malicious in his posts. He has actually posted some of the most insightful and well-researched comments, and has even gone the "MSU e-mail" route. Your low level of tolerance for proper and well-reasoned comments shows nothing but disdain for anything, and anyone, who goes against the grain.

Sorry, but he trying to emphasize that Macinsiders is a valid scientific way to poll students. It's not.

I'm sorry you're disappointed, but facts can be disappointing sometimes.

wtf! Did anyone ever try to say that it was in order to have their point heard? Who cares! It's redundant!


Not only that but when do you ever actually do a scientifically accurate sampling of students.

If there are any Science students that have any concerns regarding this, feel free to send me an email at [email protected]. I'm usually good with emails and I will try my best to address any concerns you have regarding the new logo. I'm also around the MSU office most of the time so I'll make sure I drop by and let the BoD know what you think about this logo. I wish I could have come up with a better post but I am off to bed in a bit.

Oh well, I won't even respond to most of that;

I think alot of people might agree that there is a certain level of civility that an elected official must portray when dealing with citizens(In this case the student body), you seem to lack any semblance of that in your dealings for some reason.

But I must be permitted to observe that it is not the feeling sure of a doctrine (be it what it may) which I call an assumption of infallibility. It is the undertaking to decide that question for others, without allowing them to hear what can be said on the contrary side. And I denounce and reprobate this pretension not the less if I put forth on the side of my most solemn convictions. However positive anyone's persuasion may be, not only of the faculty but of the pernicious consequences, but (to adopt expressions which I altogether condemn) the immorality and impiety of opinion. - yet if, in pursuance of that private judgement, though backed by the public judgement of his country or contemporaries, he prevents the opinion from being heard in its defence, he assumes infallibility. And so far from the assumption being less objectionable or less dangerous because the opinion is called immoral or impious, this is the case of all others in which it is most fatal.”

I might come of as a bit arrogant quoting Mills to a Science student(Its like Quoting Organic Chemistry to me) but I really hope you read and understand the above quote before dismissing any more people!

I never stated "Macinsiders is the best place to get student opinion" in the above post, please don't misquote me I merely implied that Insiders is a valid source to promote discussion and answer any potential critics much better then emailing under this circumstance. I have mentioned many times before my argument against emailing and it would be a waste of time to go over it in detail but Myoozik covers pretty much most of my stance on it.

The BOD/House Leader cannot handle 200+ emails whenever there is a decision that creates confusion/criticism among the student body, under such circumstances MSU is blessed with a source like Insiders(which is unique in Canada from what I heard) to promote discussion. I realize that it isn't exactly the perfect venue given the fact that some people here tend to troll/be overly and probably irrationally critical because of some sort of alleged bias or other unknown reasons;But most of us are everyday students.

Hence to say Insiders is a "clique" clearly imo shows how inaccurate,distorted and far from reality your view as a student representative of the student body is so much so that you are assuming that most of us here have some sort of natural anti MSU agenda and all we care about is making you lot look bad; plus there is an even larger population of people who just read Macinsiders and do not post for various reasons. You should try seeing things from our point of view before forming such opinions. I could as Florence said do the same for you and assume that your strong rebuttal is a result of bias perpatrating from an argument in another thread.

Plus your argument about "confounds" is pretty debateable, even if I agree with you(Ignoring the notion that you have no evidence to support your allegations) and bring down the number to say "1000" real MSU members(Yes I'm saying there are hypothetically 5000 carbon accounts/trolls/creeps registered), even that is pretty much the best bet you have to gauge student opinion. It is superior in its information disemination to Twitter, Facebook, the number of people willing to articulate emails to MSU, Willing to Attend SRA sessions, Willing to attend the General Assembly(lol) at the current time and point. It has its flaws but it is the best bet you guys have to have any semblance of coherence regarding where student opinion stands on issues, if you please take some time out to sift through the piles of what appears to be irrational and biased criticism from this clique you will realize that there are some valid arguments being made, but its all about perspective.

Cheers!

*Edit P.s: As science student you are trying to apply quantitative(Experima ntal design no less!) laws on a research method that is qualitative, I really don't get the logic of that! Qualitative arguments are governed on a VERY different basis, but I don't blame you at all since I'm assuming you haven't come across any in your discplinary field!

I just want to point out that....

1) They sure as hell didn't put an effort into asking us what we wanted out of a name for the bar - sure they accepted submissions, but the only ones we really saw were the rusty trombone or whatever and 1280. And then there was a poll on the MSU site.... which brings me to:

2)MacInsiders would be a hella better place than the MSU website to get voter turnout and feedback. You didn't even have to log into vote on the name as I recall, and could vote multiple times. What a joke. At least macinsiders' active useres are MOSTLY from mac, no saying who was on the MSU website...

I'm kind of appalled at how the SRA members are reacting.

Finkle who accused students about "bitching about the logo" (paraphrased) - thankfully you apologized. Also, Ben who refuses to even listen to complaints here? I've always thought that MI was incredibly pro-SRA/MSU or apathetic, but it's a few individuals with a dissenting opinion who stand out.

My suggestions:
- even if MI isn't a "valid" poll, it's a great way to get student feedback.
- if someone does offer a negative opinion, keep it in mind instead of trying to insult the other person and their arguments. :|

Originally Posted by jesus

I'm kind of appalled at how the SRA members are reacting.

Finkle who accused students about "bitching about the logo" (paraphrased) - thankfully you apologized. Also, Ben who refuses to even listen to complaints here? I've always thought that MI was incredibly pro-SRA/MSU or apathetic, but it's a few individuals with a dissenting opinion who stand out.

My suggestions:
- even if MI isn't a "valid" poll, it's a great way to get student feedback.
- if someone does offer a negative opinion, keep it in mind instead of trying to insult the other person and their arguments. :|

One thing that I'd like to point out is that those involved in student run organizations such as the IRC or SRA often do work really hard. However, most of the work is behind the scenes and no one sees that sort of stuff. The MSU gets bashed a lot, keep in mind that they are all students. I don't agree with their reactions though I have a much greater respect for Mr. Finkle after his apology. As an individual whose current position involves advertising, I think that the logo does need work. If students are able to whip something up in 15 minutes, I think that it could be possible for changes to be made. Keep in mind that sometimes decisions do need to be made rapidly and we have elected individuals who we feel would make a great decision for us. I don't think MacInsiders is the best way to get student opinion but it is definitely a great starting point. Also, keep in mind that many of the students who care about getting involved and being informed do use this website. I think that we need to stop bashing each other publicly all of the time. Perhaps we can PM them or e-mail them. I definitely think that it is very important to engage in forum discussion, however, some need to be a bit more tactful in their approaches. If you dislike the logo, yes, feel free to say so on MacInsiders. Yet, it's unneccesary to start bullying individuals in a public forum. The MSU is now aware that students are not in favor of this logo and hopefully we can see something be changed if time permits.

Originally Posted by niteskie

umm no offence but to me it looks more like a logo for a bookstore.

Definitely seconded ^^
There's just something I don't like about the one they're considering.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of one of these:
or